The race is on...

[Carlos Prio]

I totally agree with you brother!!! However, I am not so much of the mind set of hoarding RED to ourselves but that we be realistic about what it really takes to build a long term entity that is both innovative & stable. Apple, Canon, Sony, etc... built one model for many years (some 10 years) before diversifying and building multiple product lines. (Note- Private labeling lens & hardware does not count as diversifying) No matter how much money you throw at something it does not replace the natural development of methodology, technology, manufacturing processes & experience which Red's competitors possess in spades. Canon has been in business for over half a century and have developed and delivered exceptional products for over 70 years. Red has to grow into those shoes and there are no shortcuts. So in the interest of Red being my Image acquisition platform into the future, I would solicit that Red take it's time (3 months, 1 year, even 3 years) and deliver a ready for primetime EPIC that once again establishes Red as the bar. While being a "jack of all trades, master of many" may seem a realistic goal for Jim... I would go with the "less is more" approach!

Cheers,
P

I personally hope Scarlet never comes out. I liked the idea behind it at first and now I think it's a bad idea for RED and current RED owners. It's like opening the floodgates to an entire market I hoped RED would never enter into. The prosumer/professional market is a slippery slope and the majority of the mainstream that will be purchasing the scarlets will be ruthless and unforgiving.
I want RED to focus on the professionals and cater to making high quality products at a semi-affordable price point. That's what I loved about RED from day one and that's where I'd like them to stay. I'm all for capitalism and RED being successful but I think they can be successful like Arri and Panavision and maintain their individualism without catering to market that can potentially eat you alive.
As far as I'm concerned Scarlet has been a curse for RED. Great idea, but sometimes that's exactly where these things should live and die, as an idea. There is a lot to potentially lose with Scarlet, for RED and their professional clients. Seems as though they are past the point of no return and I truly hope they make it work for everyones sake. Please don't anyone take this the wrong way, I hope the best for the company the product and the user base.

 

[mikeburton]

You guys have very valid points and I do agree that the 2/3 Scarlet has a place in the professional market, absolutely! I think I'm more reluctant for RED to become a company that all of a sudden has such high demand from their smaller product that their pro line may suffer. RED has always had mixed reviews in the service category of their business (although I've never had anything but wonderful assistance) that I fear a much larger onslaught of future Scarlet owners are going to tie up support lines, and become an interference for the rest of us getting support for our other on set emergency issues.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

I was very happy to hear Jim say he expected Scarlets to be out by year's end, since that would mean Epics would have to be out sooner. Very cool.

Jay

This sounds super cool.

Also

During this development/testing time we have made the decision to add 13mm of length to the brain (about 1/2" for those who are metric challenged), which means lots of new board spins to fit.

That means EPIC has got a new body size in its latest test or Tattoo incarnation.

Sounds like an EPIC brain body alone and only could be enough for the most of shooting situations...???

That's exactly what I would need...

Again to make highlight that shipping EPIC at the end of Fall 2010 would be super cool.

Scarlet shipping @ Christmas also sounds pretty good.

Hope that my seat (that is my RED ONE early reservation number) is still valid even if I have to pay a full price for EPIC or SCARLET just because of voided R1 warranty.

 

[David Rasberry]

You guys have very valid points and I do agree that the 2/3 Scarlet has a place in the professional market, absolutely! I think I'm more reluctant for RED to become a company that all of a sudden has such high demand from their smaller product that their pro line may suffer. RED has always had mixed reviews in the service category of their business (although I've never had anything but wonderful assistance) that I fear a much larger onslaught of future Scarlet owners are going to tie up support lines, and become an interference for the rest of us getting support for our other on set emergency issues.

At the prices even a Scarlet package will sell for I don't think it is going to be a huge mass market consumer item.
There are probably a lot of pros like you guys who could live with an S35 Scarlet for 90% of their personal camera shooting needs and rent an Epic when the extra frame rates or other high end features are needed.
I think all of these cameras should be considered serious pro level gear, even it the prices are relatively moderate.
If they get them as solid and bullet proof on both the software and hardware end as they intend, maybe there won't be nearly the service response load in relation to the number of cameras that RED 1 has required.
In any case I fully expect them to continue priority support for the working pros that are there bread and butter market.

 

[Rick Darge]

I was very happy to hear Jim say he expected Scarlets to be out by year's end, since that would mean Epics would have to be out sooner. Very cool.

Jay

Color me EVIL but I'm not that psyched about that news. I'm psyched about Epic getting out the door don't get me wrong... I just want to recoup a little bit of rentals with the Epic before Scarlet ships. I have a vision of Scarlet completely cannibalizing Epic rentals in Los Angeles if they ship too fast. Oh well, I guess it's inevitable either way you look at it. 95% of the productions I work on just shoot 24 fps. That means Epic users will have to lower prices to compete with Scarlet or buy a Scarlet altogether. I can picture the conversation with the producers now... "Scarlet does the same thing and it's half the cost for rental. We don't need no 120FPS you hippy scum!"

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Color me EVIL but I'm not that psyched about that news. I'm psyched about Epic getting out the door don't get me wrong... I just want to recoup a little bit of rentals with the Epic before Scarlet ships. I have a vision of Scarlet completely cannibalizing Epic rentals in Los Angeles if they ship too fast. Oh well, I guess it's inevitable either way you look at it. 95% of the productions I work on just shoot 24 fps. That means Epic users will have to lower prices to compete with Scarlet or buy a Scarlet altogether. I can picture the conversation with the producers now... "Scarlet does the same thing and it's half the cost for rental. We don't need no 120FPS you hippy scum!"

Shave, cut your hair and trade in the sandals for loafers. Then they'll just say "We don't need no 120PFS." :laugh:

 

[Stephen Matthews]

The scarlet s35 will not be out then, it will be out a little after the fixed scarlets so you will have a little more time.

 

[Robert Frank]

I just want to recoup a little bit of rentals with the Epic before Scarlet ships. I have a vision of Scarlet completely cannibalizing Epic rentals in Los Angeles if they ship too fast.

I asked a question similar to yours here.

Jim did mention that the Scarlet S35 would come later, but didn't say how much later.

I'm sure we're not the only people thinking about Scarlet cameras setting the rate. It will be easy to explain (and market) the difference between Scarlet 2/3" and EPIC S35, but once Scarlet S35 ships I wonder how much competition it will create for EPIC.

 

[Häakon]

Once Scarlet S35 ships I wonder how much competition it will create for EPIC.

I think none in the rental market. That will be all Epic. I don't think they'll even lose many Epic sales because of Scarlet. The difference may be little more than extra framerates, but anyone who can afford Epic is going to demand that. Anyone who can't afford anything more than a Scarlet has only one option anyway. RED will just increase their userbase tenfold with the release of Scarlet, but it's not going to erode Epic sales at all. I just hope they can handle the volume of sales that are about to come their way.

 

[Elsie N]

RED will just increase their userbase tenfold with the release of Scarlet, but it's not going to erode Epic sales at all. I just hope they can handle the volume of sales that are about to come their way.

I tend to agree with this. Furthermore, I hope Scarlet sales go through the roof and become a cash cow for the company. 'Cause this company doesn't see money as anything more than a tool to make more improvements and to innovate. This benefits all their customers.

Their profits are very clean Lucre.

 

[Shane Betts]

Color me EVIL but I'm not that psyched about that news. I'm psyched about Epic getting out the door don't get me wrong... I just want to recoup a little bit of rentals with the Epic before Scarlet ships. I have a vision of Scarlet completely cannibalizing Epic rentals in Los Angeles if they ship too fast. Oh well, I guess it's inevitable either way you look at it. 95% of the productions I work on just shoot 24 fps. That means Epic users will have to lower prices to compete with Scarlet or buy a Scarlet altogether. I can picture the conversation with the producers now... "Scarlet does the same thing and it's half the cost for rental. We don't need no 120FPS you hippy scum!"

This is the brilliance of Jim's business model. When Scarlet s35 is released it will be at a price point where most people with an Epic will just grab a Scarlet brain too. So we go, in what, three, four years, from only very few people owning high end HD or 35 kit, to over 7,000 Red One's out there and onto, I would suggest, substantially more people having Scarlet and a large percentage of those 7,000 R1 owners winding up with not just an Epic but a second, Scarlet body as well. I can see our company going from owning an HVX to owning an R1M-X (check), an Epic (check) and a Scarlet. Jim's increasing the number of high end cinema cameras in the world by a factor of maybe 10 fold. It's the whole Avid to FCP growth all over again.

BTW, I'd see no reason for Epic rentals to be discounted. Given that Jim's evil plan is to have a Scarlet in every home, Epic brains will be called out when needed. This is why I'll be surprised if he offers a Scarlet kit like he has with Epic. I reckon the focus on Scarlet will be brains. I do see, however, that the whole rental biz will take a hit in general as more and more people will have their own, now affordable, kit. We all just have to adjust our business models to deal with the new wave. Life changes.

 

[Chris Kenny]

Productions that can afford the Epic will rent the Epic over the S35 Scarlet. Regardless of whether that even makes any sense. That's just how the industry works; a certain level of production is expected to rent a certain level of camera, and it has much more to do with market positioning than actual technical requirements.

This is slowly changing, as the industry wakes up to how capable low-cost tools have become. But it's not changing fast enough that it's likely to become a major issue during the useful service life of this year's Epic model.

 

[Brian Petrie]

I agree I don't think Scarlet s35 will hurt Epic rentals. Look into the past why have people rented the Arri or Panavision xxx over the other Arri or Panavision xx that is almost identical just lacking a few features they both shoot 35mm film.

 

[Carlos Prio]

Hers the S&^t thats going around this week!!

http://www.canonrumors.com/2010/06/...campaign=Feed:+canonrumors/rss+(Canon+Rumors)

 

[Terry VerHaar]

This has made the rounds several times already. Old "news" but I think few people believe it to be real. Just my perception of the buzz.

 

[Carlos Prio]

sorry

 

[Elsie N]

One more reason we need Scarlets is so we can sell our Epic Brains to Scarlet owners when it's time to upgrade to the next Brain. Scarlet is at the base of the pyramid and the broader the base, the more potential buyers for used Epic Brains.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

One more reason we need Scarlets is so we can sell our Epic Brains to Scarlet owners when it's time to upgrade to the next Brain. Scarlet is at the base of the pyramid and the broader the base, the more potential buyers for used Epic Brains.

As one who will first buy a Scarlet, I like that idea. :thumbsup:

 

[Elsie N]

As one who will first buy a Scarlet, I like that idea. :thumbsup:

Terry, if I had a Brain, I would probably have gone Scarlet first... but I'm trying to impress future investors:sifone:

 

[Stephen Williams]

I agree I don't think Scarlet s35 will hurt Epic rentals. Look into the past why have people rented the Arri or Panavision xxx over the other Arri or Panavision xx that is almost identical just lacking a few features they both shoot 35mm film.

Newer more expensive 35mm cameras tend to be quieter than older 35mm cameras (& RED) they also have better optical finders & video taps, that's 3 of the main reasons why they get used over older cameras.

There is not even that much choice for MOS the only new camera that left the factory with a video tap inside is an Arri 435! if you don't mind a 30 year old camera then an Arri 3, or a 50 year old camera Mitchell. Panavision own many Arri 435's!