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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The race is on...

Jay A. Kelley said:
We're into July. Here's what I (we) know:


The pressure on them to move cameras out the door is far greater than a few users bitching.

If they go too long, RED could lost a large number of sales. It's clear Canon has drunk the Kool-Aid of DSMC and they are currently trying to put something new together as per Jim's advice (No line skipping, better color, etc). Panasonic also got it and will release their high end/low cost camera end of this year (So we are told). The people going for these cameras do not have enough money to spend on two, so the first ones out the door get the business.

Scarlet has always confused me a little to be honest. Not the fixed lens version, I get that one. But the other... I just feel there are too many products crossing too many of the same lines. I like the choices, don't get me wrong, but I always thought there would be a low end camera (Scarlet Fixed) and a High end camera (Epic, Non-Fixed)... I am not saying what I want here, just thinking out loud.

RED succeeded.. They are no longer the underdog. Jim has changed the way cameras are made and marketed.. But in doing so, RED is quickly becoming the targert of every one else's development (If they were not already).

Epic needs to get out, and fast. But not as much for our sake as for RED's. Am I saying waiting too long can cost RED it's business? No.. Honestly I don't know enough about the business to speak about such things. What I DO know is that Canon got lucky, and kicked off a business model and product model it was not prepared for. That said, they know it now, and they will take advantage of it.. Who wouldn't?


We'll see how it goes. I still hold my position, for Epic, take your time. Get it right.. Make it work. For Scarlet.. I have no idea.. Honest.

Jay
Click to expand...

At last, somebody talking sense.

About the gloom and doom some people are getting hung up on. An inevitable thing about talking up gloom and doom all the time, is gloom and doom itself. Better to point it out, state it, then seek solutions, rather than dwell on it.

For others: The market is likely 90% non high end cinema/video professional sales, of the remaining 10%, 90% is likely non cinematic. Without this market the price of the 2/3rd scarlets probably become more unaffordable. It is not the non-cinema market that is irrelevant in the low end scarlet strategy. Red would know that, and hence the fixed scarlet is positioned at a price that anybody that wants a descent camera to do serious things low end can way up going up to the scarlet.

The market strategy of the competition is to divide and conquer. Split of potential customers to competing products and leave the competition with the left overs.

Scarlet will compete on video/cinema reputation.

About 4/3rds/DSLR and DOF, I was around during the 35mm DOF adapter revolution, and believe me, some of the DOF shots those guys used told more a story than most have seen in a cinema. Marla, is probably still one of my favorite films (though I have not seen it for years) and it is not one of the best examples. It is not a gimmick, but in good hands has true gravity. People will find these cameras "usable" and "good enough". The ones that can control DOF and focus electronically/customizable presets will be thankful for the image stabilization. They will show their friends and clients, and will impress them, and henceforth will get under your skin if you have to compete against them on the low end.

You know what I plan on getting onto my scarlet, for the sheer joy of it, then maybe I can start filming "What Angles do..".
 
Canon stumbled on this market? Cameras from the lowest end Sanyo HD1 camera years ago offered video capabilities beyond what normal still cameras offered. The technology potential was there years before that. Even today, the market has just been catching up in terms of data rate (and soon in FULLHD frames per second) with the Sanyo model of last year. Does anybody here have a reason companies would not seek HD video on DSLR cameras, that does not involve video camera sales?

But there is seriously enough market there for Canon to make more money on DSLR and digital still HD then their normal cameras. Already demand for 'video camcorders' has dropped off for cheap digital still cameras locally (and we have only just got descent ones).
 
Yeah, you're right I agree with you Stephen my example was flawed. I just believe that there will be strong demand for rentals of the Epic even when Scarlett s35 is out.
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
...Scarlet has always confused me a little to be honest. Not the fixed lens version, I get that one. But the other... I just feel there are too many products crossing too many of the same lines. I like the choices, don't get me wrong, but I always thought there would be a low end camera (Scarlet Fixed) and a High end camera (Epic, Non-Fixed)... I am not saying what I want here, just thinking out loud...
Jay
Click to expand...

Hey Jay!

I presume You are talking about the S35 - 5K & FF35 - 6K Scarlets (since besides the fixed there is another 2/3" - 3K interchangeable).

The main difference (since the sensors are identical to the Epic's equivalents) are the data-rates and frame-rates in my opinion. Especially the data rates will produce significant difference in image quality when compared to the 2.5:1 Epics top codec, certainly significantly enough to make the case for Epic. And while Scarlet's 72FPS is nothing to sneeze at, the 120FPS of the Epic could be the ice-breaker too for many. I think there is a clear difference between the two and they are both directed towards different markets...

The S35 and FF35 Scarlets are targeted at those wanting to use still glass without introducing major crop-factor. Usually people with cine glass will be able to justify the price difference and hope onto Epic wagon...

I always wanted to see a S35 or FF35 model with 3K resolution (My dream "Maroon" camera). The main drive behind this wish was to have a sensor "compatible" with still glass, while providing more sensitivity (due to much larger photo-sites) and (arguably) more DR, while at the same time being able to use same affordable electronics form the 3K Scarlet models (higher frame rates at full res) and more importantly - a lot more affordable post (due to much smaller data size reflecting on both storage and processing requirements)...

Having said that - I can clearly see (and agree) with Jim's position on whether 1080P is "enough". Sure it isn't. And given the choice most will definitely opt for 4K+ resolutions. But there lies my point - many are simply faced with cruel restrictions for their budgets and workflows to fit within quality requirements and deadlines of their customers. This is also the same reason why I predict that the 3K Scarlet models will be extensively used on many "pro" productions...

And then there is the brilliant DSMC concept. 3K resolution is simply not enough for decent stills. Period...

So I have give up on my "Maroon" and I am looking forward to embrace Epic for both the S35 and FF35 models and Scarlet for the 3K models. And I am counting every second separating me from the 6x17 28K Epic...

Knowing Your background Jay - I can agree You are in the same boat and the S35 and FF35 Scarlet makes not much sense to us. But there is a clear place for them and there are many out there looking forward to those models. They are willing to sacrifice the data/frame rates for the ability to use their preferred optics. And the (app) $15K difference in the brain cost will go long way for the accessories...

Just my two yens...

:sifone: Peter
 
I can make Scarlet perfectly clear if there is any confusion Jay... :D

I will not buy a $33k Epic brain.
I will buy a $10k Scarlet brain.

The number of times I need 120fps @ 4k are few and far between. For $20k I could get several years worth of Epic Rentals when necessary.

I intend for the Scarlet to replace the 5D for taking on set stills. I will also be using the FF35 Scarlet for shooting background plates so I want 6k in order to shoot wide and use smaller sections for moving matte paintings, sky plates etc etc. I don't need high-speed for any of that.

When not using my Scarlet I intend to use it for shooting personal projects: dramas, spec spots etc. If I need highspeed--again I just saved $20k which can get me a lot of rental days.

RED can either sell me a reduced price scarlet or they can lose me as a customer. That's why they're selling a scarlet for all the people like me.
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
I can make Scarlet perfectly clear if there is any confusion Jay... :D

I will not buy a $33k Epic brain.
I will buy a $10k Scarlet brain.

The number of times I need 120fps @ 4k are few and far between. For $20k I could get several years worth of Epic Rentals when necessary.
Click to expand...

Gavin, with all due respect, with $20K You would get at the most 20~30 days rental, certainly not "several years"...

And do not forget the data-rate - which in my opinion is far more significant then the frame-rate. While I have no doubt that the S35 Scarlet will produce great images, just have a look at the current RED ONE. Try to shoot a scene with heavy texture (such as white-water, tree foliage, etc...) and have a look at the difference between RC28, RC36 and RC42... Now just imagine the difference with RC250... Now while we know the numbers will not compare directly between the old codecs and the new ones, we can safely assume the difference between S35 Scarlet and S35 Epic is going to be dramatic. Also try to shoot high-speed blue screen (2K @ 120FPS) and You will immediately understand what I am talking about...

Once again - I know the Scarlet S35 will produce great images, but the images from the Epic are going to be in a different league all together in my honest opinion...

Just for clarity - the point I am trying to make is that there will be (easily) justifiable image quality difference between the S35 Scarlet and Epic and this combined with the higher speed and few other details will clearly position the two cameras into separate market segments. Sure there will be customers for whom the Scarlet is enough, just as there will be others who need the extra push. Just don't think the S35 Scarlet makes the S35 Epic pointless...

Cheers,

Peter
 
Sorry it wasn't clear. I meant years of need at the rate I would be using it.

If I need Epic for 7 days a year for highspeed work and I could get 21 days for $20k that would be 3 years worth of my epic usage. And unlike my scarlet when I need highspeed work I'm almost certainly on someone else's dime and will just include it in the rental package.

As to REDCODE: FF35 Scarlet was slated to handle REDCODE 100 which I'm hoping will be mathematically lossless @ 24 fps.

I'm not arguing that the Epic is pointless. I'm saying it's over-designed for 90% of my usage. And thanks to the modular system I can rent an epic brain when needed. I'm really glad there are epics it's just not for me the camera that makes sense to own since its features are targeted to a different audience.
 
BTW- to add to the dropping of the whole Scarlet thing I was pitching... drop that still camera thing for now as well!!! Autofocus and all that!!!! You can add/unlock that later.
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
I'm not arguing that the Epic is pointless. I'm saying it's over-designed for 90% of my usage. And thanks to the modular system I can rent an epic brain when needed. I'm really glad there are epics it's just not for me the camera that makes sense to own since its features are targeted to a different audience.
Click to expand...
I agree completely. The S35 Scarlet seems to be the dream camera for owner-operators. Epic will be the rental house staple, and the darling of big-budget Hollywood, but S35 Scarlet, coupled with Nikon or Canon lenses, will be the indie filmmaker's dream camera.

I sincerely hope it doesn't take too long before it comes out.
 
What I sell is beautiful motion images with as much dynamic range, resolution & frame rates (Film like) that I can deliver!!!! So, an incredible EPIC with an incredible sensor that delivers the best dynamic range in the business is all I care about!!!!

So IMO, any novel (non pro cinema) feature that slows the delivery... DROP IT!!! Unless of course you are going to the next sensor level... then some xtra time is justified.
 
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