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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The race is on...

I honestly will not be terribly surprised if Scarlet never comes out. I think that the hacked GH1, the 7D, the 5D, and the _Ds yet to come will pretty much poach the lower-end market. Since most of us are aiming for a 1080p delivery world, it seems pretty obvious to me that cameras aimed specifically at that market will always be viewed as "good enough" for that market. And, in point of fact, they are pretty darn amazing cameras.

I also agree that the M-X is amazing, but that Epic will have to have a new sensor. The market is moving so incredibly quickly. I, for one, would much prefer the new sensor to be S35.

Stephen
 
It has been my contention all along and it remains... It's not all about the camera! The Epic and Scarlet are and will always be a part of the RED System of producing images and taking that product all the way to the end user.

additional: (the camera(s) via ownership or rental, is the ticket into the system)
 
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My 2 cents-

Redusers- Make pictures with your Red One & MX today, tomorrow and into the future... get paid!!!

Red- STFU Apple style!!! and bring the "Epic" into the market solid and with guns blazing from an image quality, dynamic range, functionality, frame rate & ergonomics standpoint. Make it the best camera on the market at any price!!! Don't waste your time on the DSLR market (Scarlett) since the game has changed and thats a fight you will never win. You achieved the impossible which was to be accepted into the Cine/Commercial world. Protect it & Capitalize on that and do what you do well!! Diversifying your resources to compete against the Empire will prove fruitless.

Waiters- stop asking, stop running around in circles!!!! continue to make brilliant pictures with your 7D. there is nothing that looks as good out of the box!!!
 
Mark Pugh said:
I agree with Brigham that you're off the mark here.
I'd like to have all options available. FF35 is a great one that can expand creative possibilities.
Having a FF35 sensor doesn't mean that's the only format available on the camera. The same camera could shoot in cropped mode, either for S35, "16mm, or 2:1squeeze 35mmAnamorphic.

If you think 16mm or 2/3 inch is all you need, that's fine, but it certainly doesn't cover what most people evision themselves using into the future.

You can't criticise FFF35 based on the 5D's performance, as it will be a superseded camera in a few months anyway.
The thread started with the question of "what will you be wanting next year".
The FF35 format will only become more attractive as better cameras based on the format emerge, probably at the end of this year.
Click to expand...

Not criticizing FF35 or S35. The 16mm/2/3" sized format has existed alongside the various 35mm formats for nearly 100 years now. It is an extremely popular format in its own right.
Since there are currently no other video cameras in this format for much less than $20k, and the closest thing to it in a 16mm camera price wise is a Bolex, Scarlet will have a very strong position in this market.
Personally I think its overall image quality, high resolution, raw recording, and high frame rates will make it a very appealing alternative in its price range. In some respects I think it will be superior as an acquisition device to any camera shooting 1080p video regardless of format.
 
@Carlos Prio

"Don't waste your time on the DSLR market (Scarlett) since the game has changed and thats a fight you will never win."

If you're suggesting that Red abandon the Scarlett program, that would be a huge mistake. First, it would send a terrible message to Red users. In essence, Red would be saying that their commitment to any given product line is iffy. How could a consumer buy a product at any price point knowing that Red may or may not be able to deliver, and may or may not be as committed to their products as other vendors?

The specs for the Scarlet as promised by Red are impressive. There are so many people waiting for Red to deliver a product to the market. Most consumers see low cost imaging solutions as a stepping block to better products. In other words, people who use a DSLR in cinematography would like to have the means at some point to film on a Red One or an Arri.

The real question is whether Red can produce the Scarlet at a price point that makes sense for the consumer. Given Scarlet's specs, and the ability to take modules from one class of system to another, any price point sub $3k - $18k seems appropriate. Right now, Red needs only to be concerned with the upper end. Apple consumers have shown that people are willing to pay a premium for a product that meets their needs.

The bottom line is that Red just needs to deliver.
 
David Rasberry said:
Not criticizing FF35 or S35. The 16mm/2/3" sized format has existed alongside the various 35mm formats for nearly 100 years now. It is an extremely popular format in its own right.
Since there are currently no other video cameras in this format for much less than $20k, and the closest thing to it in a 16mm camera price wise is a Bolex, Scarlet will have a very strong position in this market.
Personally I think its overall image quality, high resolution, raw recording, and high frame rates will make it a very appealing alternative in its price range. In some respects I think it will be superior as an acquisition device to any camera shooting 1080p video regardless of format.
Click to expand...

I agree David. Many if not most people who have gravitated towards the DSLR cameras are coming directly from using 1/3" cameras where you cant get anything out of focus! There is an in-between format called 2/3", that may be just the right combination of decreased DOF mixed with the increased ability to keep what your watching.... actually IN focus... for following action or varite' type filming it may be just perfect. Focus can be very tough if your working wide open with a FF sensor, and don't have an experienced AC at your side. The 2/3" sensor size done well can look very good next to 1/3", and not bad next to a 4/3 sensor. But most 2/3" cameras currently are still very expensive to the budget film maker who has been using HVX's etc. Bringing on a serious 2/3", full functioned, high speed, "cinema camera" like the fixed scarlet at the price point last quoted could be a huge hit.

The unknown being whats next in the DLSR world and how far up the functionality ladder will they reach next, with usable codec, etc. Canon has done very well thus far, but will have to "up" they're game in order to stay in it going forward, given a Scarlet coming to market. I can definitely see a turf war brewing in the 5-10k price category, where massive numbers of sales may be ready to jump for the next new thing (many don't want the 5d2's lack of pro functionality, and suck codec). The 5d2 is 1 year and 8 months on the street now, so you'd think there should be a 5d3 in the not too distant future!

Canon, Red/Scarlet, Panasonic.... maybe Sony.... who knows who will get there first, but seeing the huge response to the 5d2 and 7d cameras and the lack of response to other companies attempt at similar capabilities (Nikon, Panasonic) feels like the first to market (with a serious, larger sensor camera) could rule the lower end (market pie slice) for some time if the system is complete and fully functional..... with better codec, better viewing, better sound, better I/O, accessorizable, etc.

The other thing Red must, must, must do to win the war (at this level), is offer a "baked in" option. By all means create a Raw recording camera for those who want to record at the highest levels and reap the benefits. But at the Scarlett level of production, (I believe) they must offer a pro-res type record codec option or they will give up a huge slice of the potential market pie. I contend that most folks at this level don't need it, and don't want to deal with the Raw trans-coding. Unless its all streamlined and made much easy, faster, cheaper, and takes the extra steps out of the equation.

I can say the same at the higher levels of Red camera's as well. The Pro-Res module option (idea) is critical to being competitive in tomorrows market against a camera like the Alexa, and whatever else is coming next.

I'm in Red's corner in this "race" as Jay points out, but timing is important as things change fast these days, and first to market gets a huge market boost of converts, and new buyers spend they're saved cash. But its also a "transition" period we are in.... from old school analog to new digital ways to record, store, and manipulate images and media. It may not be till 3-5 years from now before were solidly into the digital millennium and can see who has won the early turf battles and leading the market place forward. Red seems to be in "sprint" mode right now (as they should be), but can they keep up that pace for a long run? Or maybe just long enough to convert the most people then back off to a sustainable pace, maybe? Is there a "burn out" (or flame out) factor we should be concerned about?

For sure, the competition is good and keeps the players innovating and on they're toes.... all good for us consumers!

Interesting times indeed.
 
What i am suggesting and have always suggested in my previous posts is that we must all be realistic about what it really takes to bring a product of this caliber to market and the reality of diversification (diluting) of resources to bring several products online. While I am a proud Red owner and agree that Red is the holy grail of digital cinema & imaging, it does not have the resources to compete against the legacy Japanese manufactures which are now all wide awake & gunning for Red!!!

If you cannot recognize that Red has been swamped with challenges & that EPIC is a moose of a project that is facing several delays then you are being naive. Ask yourself, how many Red Ones are shipping today??? How many have shipped in the past 6 months??? How long can a camera company bleed and not sell cameras???

All I am saying is that I myself do not want Graeme to split his mindspace between Epic & Scarlett. I want him to focus resources in a space Red already owns and excels in. Raise the bar again!!! Rock the f-ing EPIC!!!! and put Shane & Rodney on Stage 4 waiting list!!!




Pepper Smith said:
@Carlos Prio

"Don't waste your time on the DSLR market (Scarlett) since the game has changed and thats a fight you will never win."

If you're suggesting that Red abandon the Scarlett program, that would be a huge mistake. First, it would send a terrible message to Red users. In essence, Red would be saying that their commitment to any given product line is iffy. How could a consumer buy a product at any price point knowing that Red may or may not be able to deliver, and may or may not be as committed to their products as other vendors?

The specs for the Scarlet as promised by Red are impressive. There are so many people waiting for Red to deliver a product to the market. Most consumers see low cost imaging solutions as a stepping block to better products. In other words, people who use a DSLR in cinematography would like to have the means at some point to film on a Red One or an Arri.

The real question is whether Red can produce the Scarlet at a price point that makes sense for the consumer. Given Scarlet's specs, and the ability to take modules from one class of system to another, any price point sub $3k - $18k seems appropriate. Right now, Red needs only to be concerned with the upper end. Apple consumers have shown that people are willing to pay a premium for a product that meets their needs.

The bottom line is that Red just needs to deliver.
Click to expand...
 
@Carlos,

I think the difficult times were back in 2006. Jim said back then they didn't know what they were doing and suggests from time-to-time that may still be the case. (he is just trying to keep expectations low IMO)

Wait until after his Q & A session tonight before panicking and jettisoning everything not nailed down to save the ship. I'm thinking the ship is in fine trim.
 
Red has something like 200 engineers working on these cameras, and the hardware/software has much in common between the different models. Once Epic is nailed down, Scarlet shouldn't be too far behind. They are not completely different cameras.
My main concern right now is the loss of their overseas manufacturing partner so late in the process for the Scarlets. Be nice to know where they stand with that.
 
I personally hope Scarlet never comes out. I liked the idea behind it at first and now I think it's a bad idea for RED and current RED owners. It's like opening the floodgates to an entire market I hoped RED would never enter into. The prosumer/professional market is a slippery slope and the majority of the mainstream that will be purchasing the scarlets will be ruthless and unforgiving.
I want RED to focus on the professionals and cater to making high quality products at a semi-affordable price point. That's what I loved about RED from day one and that's where I'd like them to stay. I'm all for capitalism and RED being successful but I think they can be successful like Arri and Panavision and maintain their individualism without catering to market that can potentially eat you alive.
As far as I'm concerned Scarlet has been a curse for RED. Great idea, but sometimes that's exactly where these things should live and die, as an idea. There is a lot to potentially lose with Scarlet, for RED and their professional clients. Seems as though they are past the point of no return and I truly hope they make it work for everyones sake. Please don't anyone take this the wrong way, I hope the best for the company the product and the user base.
 
Mike I can understand why you would say this, but remember Jim LOVES Apple. He follows a lot of their patterns. MACs were cheap for students with the thinking that they would stay with what they are comfortable with as they move into the professional market.

Scarlet is meant to accomplish the same thing.. Get them comfortable with the camera, comfortable with the workflow, and when they move up, they will stay with what they know.

(For the record, I don't like Apple near as much as Jim does)

Jay
 
I hear ya Jay, I'm liking Apple less and less these days and I kinda see RED following that pattern. Best I can explain it is this, 5 years ago before the iPhone you could walk into an Apple store for help or to make a small purchase without any hassle.
Today post iPhone, iPad, etc you can't step foot in the door or get a single person to help you anymore cause every mom and dad that can't so much use a land line phone much less a smart phone is taking up every associates time asking how to download their photos.
Not necessarily bad just not the company i was sold on. That said, i don't believe it's wise to be brand loyal as a consumer/professional anyhow as your needs may not always match your favorite brands plan as time passes.
 
I think most people getting a 2/3 Scarlet will be professional Mike. I'll be glad when the fixed Scarlet comes out because I want a small camera that can shoot high speed in HD. Don't hate me for wanting that camera lol. If your point is the FF Scarlets are Epics too close cousins you might have a point but I think the 2/3 Scarlets have a place for people who want to run n gun in high quality HD. I'm glad RED has the software bug under control now and work can get back to production related issues. If they only get one or two models ready this year so be it but if the goal is still to give us a wide range of variety of camera models to choose from this year or next I'm not going to complain one bit. Keep up the great work everyone.
 
mikeburton said:
I hear ya Jay, I'm liking Apple less and less these days and I kinda see RED following that pattern. Best I can explain it is this, 5 years ago before the iPhone you could walk into an Apple store for help or to make a small purchase without any hassle.
Today post iPhone, iPad, etc you can't step foot in the door or get a single person to help you anymore cause every mom and dad that can't so much use a land line phone much less a smart phone is taking up every associates time asking how to download their photos.
Not necessarily bad just not the company i was sold on. That said, i don't believe it's wise to be brand loyal as a consumer/professional anyhow as your needs may not always match your favorite brands plan as time passes.
Click to expand...

Mike, I cant see mom and pop buying even the low-end fixed scarlet camera at (maybe 6k w/basic aks?). The other Scarlets are pried at 8-9k and up (maybe 12-13k accesorized?), so were talking about pro equipment, at prices that will keep the casual buyer away. Mom and pop can buy flip-cams for 75 bucks, or use they're i-phones. Let the apple store deal with them.
 
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