The Oct 29th cut-off

[Imran Farouk]

Hate to break it to anyone that thinks RED won't deliver to a normal customer in 2010 (i.e. non RED Owners),

Logically speaking - REDs learnt manufacturing process...they have to make X amount of Tattoos argo they would then need to know the simplistic quickest but most quality efficient way possible to deliever these to their respective owners... STAGE ONE.

Following this is those stepping up, potentially large numbers of people, therefore production needs to begin sometime before this stage or as soon as this stage is made available. This is early 2010 (assuming if nothing goes wrong)... STAGE TWO.

After the STAGE TWO people have received their goods they move onto STAGE THREE.
remember. Theres a month only to make these choices...by STAGE THREE the production should be ramping up. ASSUMING Feb/March this would be May/June time.

STAGE FOUR is basically just that orange light right before the public release. At that point it would probably be latest September?

ALL ASSUMPTIONS. But there's no way it would be after 2010, they'd still start public sales before the end of 2010. The rate of the STAGES depends on how HEAVILY the Tattoo's are tested once received and also how fast RED works to give out firmware upgrades etc. also how fast they tweak their own. In RED fashion...once those Tattoos are out.

I'm willing to bet its a Green light for them to slam on that peddle harder then before and we'll be getting a nice view of that race track.

All I'm gonna say...think about it all logically. Add in factors but they will still deliver in 2010 if Tattoos go out before December.

No one is an 'elitist' its the people that struggled and bothered to take the dive and throw their money at a company they had no extended long term knowledge about (like Sony etc.)
Maybe a few could be rich, but that doesn't mean that they are any different from those that a struggled in terms of their abilities so why bundle everyone into one?

Simple fact. Those people helped RED gain the finances needed to fund EPIC and keep it alive. Without those people RED would've been gone a while back. As rich as Jannard maybe, his not a fool for a business man. He knows his stuff and if RED didn't sell then why carry on? If you keep the program open.

Then that means some guy can jump ahead of me into Stage Two who just bought it a week before Stage Two? Or not even that...a bunch of people jump ahead cause of that...well g...what about all the low serial numbers who took that dive and are waiting for Stage Three...the cut off point serves to not let this happen. That it is all fair when it comes to these Stages.

:rant:

 

[Peter Matthes]

Calling RED One owners "elitist/rich kids" is getting out of hand. I saved and hustled for over 2 years to get my own RED One. Our first RED One was bought by my business partner (after I evangelized the R1 and we waited 1.5 years to get it) but I who am a poor but determined geek had to save my ass off to get my own. I sold every older video system I had and then saved and saved and saved. I leap frogged all the way up from a Canon XL1s back in 2003, to a Sony FX1 in 2005, then to two HVX200's in 2006 then to a RED One body only and had to wait to get the accessories just to turn the damn thing on. All this rich kid trustifarian crap is insulting. I know in my case I was just determined as hell and passionate about the RED One. I know many others that are the same.



Exactly... plus envy.

I never made a generalization like that at all.

If fact, in several posts I made that very clear.

 

[Mike Smith]

Although I don't spend my life on this board I remember a post from the RED team that clearly suggested there would not be an unannounced cut-off date to be eligible for an Epic-X body.

I could have purchased a RED one body last week.

My hesitation was based on a RED team comment that October 30th would not be an Epic-X cut-off. The follow up comment made was "That would not be fair". I am confident that many of you know what I am talking about, and I am not the only one on this board pointing that out. That statement was posted on more than one occasion.

...It has to do with company integrity.

When you say something, you keep to it, or explain why you did not.

Peter,

Please provide a link/links to the post(s) you mention.

 

[alexwhitmer]

Whether one can just run out and buy a red, or they need to struggle and sacrifice to own one, in the end it will come down to the skill and commitment of the person behind it. Time and again I have heard, 'oh, well he or she has a red'! Okay, and?

My question is, how ever you get your hands on one, does it pay off in the quality of work you can provide a client - and hence garner more work? From what I can tell, it is unbeatable in clarity.

Or is it just the satisfaction of producing films with this kind of quality, whether or not it actually makes you any real money? I think somewhere in the middle - make a living, but focus on making the camera do all it can, and move your films from average to extraordinary - assuming you have a great story to film in the first place!

alex


www.alexwhitmer.wordpress.com

 

[Milan Spasic]

I have to play the devil's advocate for a minute here.....

Peter sort of has a point when he mentions trustafarians. The lack of very basic, fundamental filmmaking knowledge some Red users display on this board is quite astounding. The real question is: why should that bother anyone? It doesn't bother me at all but it's still quite astounding.

There are a lot of people who see R1 purchase as a way of buying their way into the film industry. The only damaging effect of this is that these people often undercut established industry rates in order to make their way into the business. That sucks for a lot of us but I don't doubt that the real talent and skill will eventually prevail.

Also, I personally don't understand the whole elitist brouhaha about the serial numbers and your place in line. Why would anyone prefer to pay more for an OLDER camera that's already been through hell? Who cares what serial number or finish/color your Epic is? (Well, I know who but I don't understand why.)

R1 still has plenty of working life and value in it and I'm looking forward to shooting many more projects with it before switching to E-X.

Cheers,

Milan (patiently waiting at the back of the line - Stage 3).

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Well it's quite understandable people not having filmmaker knowledge... I think most R1 owners came from a high end prosumer video background and were looking to upgrade to a camera in the next level (above 10k). Many were able to afford a R1 (from selling their previous prosumer cameras) and so did.... its simple as that. Before they had to use prosumer, 35mm adapter or 2/3" cameras and now they have something better to work with. In South Florida it was the established rental houses that started undercutting the price... one of the main ones down here had a $500 package immediately. Some rental houses are doing free work too.

There are a lot of people who see R1 purchase as a way of buying their way into the film industry. The only damaging effect of this is that these people often undercut established industry rates in order to make their way into the business. That sucks for a lot of us but I don't doubt that the real talent and skill will eventually prevail.

Well buying your way into the industry, happens in so many different ways. The amount of people I see doing sub 30k crappy movies that no one enjoys watching (much less reading the script)... is a lot. These people most of the time don't own a RED but they are buying their way in. Many people are buying their way in... tis a gold rush going on. With the Scarlet release millions more will buy their way in, Cinematography will go the way of digital photography. Here comes the Canon HV30 crowd.

To me it would seem the trust fund babies would have something more elitist to play with than a RED camera... like film cameras. The RED One camera for its features is highly affordable. All this trust fund talk is kind of depraved.

 

[MichaelHalsell]

Question for Peter- If Oct 29th (or 30th) could be a redo, how could the situation have a different ending?

 

[Mike Smith]

I have to play the devil's advocate for a minute here.....

Peter sort of has a point when he mentions trustafarians.

His point was that he claims Red said the opposite to what most of us remember about the Oct 29th cut-off but he has not yet proved his point with links.

The lack of very basic, fundamental filmmaking knowledge some Red users display on this board is quite astounding. The real question is: why should that bother anyone? It doesn't bother me at all but it's still quite astounding.

Now who's being elitist? Not everyone on Reduser is a professional filmmaker. Some folks come here to learn in a (usually) welcoming environment where folks happily share their knowledge. Besides, even the very experienced are learning all the time. At least the good ones. Like learning to shoot digitally with Red for example. Even the very experienced filmmaker may have known nothing of digital filmmaking before wanting to "dip a toe". Only an "elitist" that was "protecting their turf" would look down on anyone wishing to learn.

Also, I personally don't understand the whole elitist brouhaha about the serial numbers and your place in line. Why would anyone prefer to pay more for an OLDER camera that's already been through hell? Who cares what serial number or finish/color your Epic is? (Well, I know who but I don't understand why.)

You're joking here, right?

 

[Peter Matthes]

Question for Peter- If Oct 29th (or 30th) could be a redo, how could the situation have a different ending?

Leave it to a fellow New Yorker to ask the straight forward question.

When it comes to me ... Simply, I would have bought a RED ONE body.

To be honest, I too would have bought this body as a placeholder for an Epic-X and a way to familiarize myself with the RED system of operation.

As a Sony EX3 / Letus Ultimate shooter ... and a latecomer to the party … I am not sure that I would be deserving of the additional modules. However, I would like the opportunity to be able to buy the Epic-X before it becomes (as Jim Hare wrote) “commercially available”.

As far as a system of reward for R1 owners ... I think that the current stage system is extremely generous and really unprecedented. If I were an R1 owner, I would be very happy. I know that I would be seriously drawn towards Stage 2. I think the only real question is whether an R1 (with the new Mysterium-X sensor) and the Epic-X will seamlessly cut together. Even if they do not, for some reason, I still think it would make the updated R1 an excellent rental opportunity.

As far as information dissemination … I wish that there had not been a statement made to the effect of … “Oct 30th will not be the cut-off for an R1 trade in for an Epic-X.”

Now … I am sure that Mike Smith will ask me for a link. You know what Mike … I cannot search this message board efficiently enough to find it, but I am sure that it was made. It threw other people off as well.

What I now believe, is that whoever made that statement …(Jim, Jarred, etc.) … What they most likely meant to say was that it could be traded in for an Epic S35 … not an Epic-X. Mike … I cannot find this statement, but I do believe that Epic-X was mistakenly mentioned at that time, and I believe that this seriously threw some of us off in terms of the urgency.

Now … lets talk about links.

I have been accused, by David and Andrea, of calling RED ONE owners rich kid elitists.

Where do you see me calling ALL R1 owners trust fund elitists?

Where do you even quote me as calling MOST R1 owners as elitist rich kids?

In my very first post on this thread I said “I HAVE SPENT 20 YEARS IN THE FILM BUSINESS AND I KNOW SEVERAL RED OWNERS WHO ARE EXCEPTIONAL PROFESSIONALS AND HARD WORKING PEOPLE.” – (Andrea … based on your depiction of your camera buying progression in the business, you would obviously qualify in the "hard working" category and so I don't see how you take offense.)

In fact, I work closely with many of the NYC based RED ONE owners and they are all top-notch people in every way.

However, if you think that many RED ONES are not currently owned by wealthy want-to-be filmmakers … you are fooling yourself.

My great frustration with not buying a RED ONE in time, stems directly from personally knowing at least a half dozen rich kids here in NYC that have bought R1 bodies, simply to have an Epic-X or “the next cool thing”. Those cameras, in many cases have not left the box yet. If I know of six, how many like that exist elsewhere.

I will openly say that I find this very thought frustrating.

Peter Moretti … you asked me: “You’ve spent 20 years in the film industry and you’re complaining about trustifarians and elitists?”

Yes, Peter. It is precisely because I have spent 20 years in this business that I have a hypersensitivity to trust fund kids that want to play filmmaker.

I grew up in NYC with spoiled rich kids. They have all the money they could ever hope for, but they lack something that they crave so very badly. Accomplishment. They want to prove to the world that they can do something on their own. Some buy nightclubs or restaurants … others buy themselves into the position of director. I cannot count how many vanity jobs I have had to work.

Again … I don’t want to generalize, or be a classist. There are several wealthy individuals who are excellent filmmakers.

Jamie Johnson made several extraordinary documentaries ("Born Rich", "The One Percent"). Davis Guggenheim made “An Inconvenient Truth”. Tatiana Von Furstenberg was the sister of one of my grade school classmates growing up ... and she has just co-directed a film ("Tanner Hall") that looks exceptional.

Just to name a few.

To go back to your question, Michael …

There are no redos in life … and I have missed out on an opportunity to participate in something that I THOUGHT I was closely watching.

I do not mean to offend RED ONE owners who love and shoot their cameras. I think it is a great system and I wish you the very best.

My frustration simply comes from having missed out on this opportunity because some of us must be ultra careful in the way we spend our money. As unlikely as it might seem to many of you that visit this message board daily, it was unclear to some of us that there was going to be a deadline.

P.S. David Battistella … if you truly enjoy cigars … try a Davidoff No.2. or an AVO Intermezzo. They are both medium to mild, but they are out of this world.

P.P.S. Michael Halsell ... Go Yankees!

 

[MichaelHalsell]

Leave it to a fellow New Yorker to ask the straight forward question.


P.P.S. Michael Halsell ... Go Yankees!

Watching the game as we speak! Yankees on fiya

 

[jimhare]

Hi Peter,

Can I ask if you think your model would actually be fair to Red?

There is no doubt in my mind that they are losing money hand over fist with the Red One "100% buy-back" combined with selling modules for nothing.

Remember that when the majority of us bought our Reds, there was no Epic and no Scarlet. We were flying blind with only Jim's word that as the only ones willing to put our hard earned (and not inherited :emote_hippie dollars behind it, we would not be left in the cold.

Instead, it's everyone who DIDN'T buy a Red who feel left out.

Bizarre:willy_nilly:

To think of the Red One as a placeholder or trainer camera you can just sell back to Red at the end is really biting the hand that feeds our creativity.

I do understand your frustration, I really do. And I truly mean no offense or malice to your point of view.

But I think everyone needs to place the responsibility on themselves for holding out too long, trying to squeeze the best deal out of Red.

For me it was simple. I looked at my business, I looked at Red, I bought the Red, I brought it into my business, my business expanded exponentially.

Everything else is just a distraction.

I for one will be glad when this is all over and we can get back to normal life.

Buy a Scarlet, buy an Epic, buy a Red One. But do it because it's good for your business, not because you think Red is handing out free cameras in a raffle. :cheers2:

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Alan Skinner]

Hi Peter,

Can I ask if you think your model would actually be fair to Red?

There is no doubt in my mind that they are losing money hand over fist with the Red One "100% buy-back" combined with selling modules for nothing.

Remember that when the majority of us bought our Reds, there was no Epic and no Scarlet. We were flying blind with only Jim's word that as the only ones willing to put our hard earned (and not inherited :emote_hippie dollars behind it, we would not be left in the cold.

Instead, it's everyone who DIDN'T buy a Red who feel left out.

Bizarre:willy_nilly:

To think of the Red One as a placeholder or trainer camera you can just sell back to Red at the end is really biting the hand that feeds our creativity.

I do understand your frustration, I really do. And I truly mean no offense or malice to your point of view.

But I think everyone needs to place the responsibility on themselves for holding out too long, trying to squeeze the best deal out of Red.

For me it was simple. I looked at my business, I looked at Red, I bought the Red, I brought it into my business, my business expanded exponentially.

Everything else is just a distraction.

I for one will be glad when this is all over and we can get back to normal life.

Buy a Scarlet, buy an Epic, buy a Red One. But do it because it's good for your business, not because you think Red is handing out free cameras in a raffle. :cheers2:

Cheers,

Jim

Yo, Jim!

Perfectly said!

 

[Peter Matthes]

Buy a Scarlet, buy an Epic, buy a Red One. But do it because it's good for your business, not because you think Red is handing out free cameras in a raffle.

Jim

I don't want anything free from RED, Jim. I think I made that very clear.

However, not all of us were lucky enough to be able to afford a RED ONE last year ... or the year before that.

Even though people accurately describe the R1 as "more affordable than previous professional camera systems", when a full package is put together, it still clocks in at $35,000-40,000 or more.

As a result, this April I went with a Sony EX3 and Letus. Fortunately, it has paid for itself and much more. Now I would like to find the best way to afford and transition to an Epic.

In terms of business ... Being able to buy one as close to its release as possible for rental reasons I'm sure is not lost on you. The bonus modules did not mean as much to me as a reasonable place in line.

However, I appreciate and understand your comments.

All the best.

 

[Antonio Forjaz]

Hi Peter,

Can I ask if you think your model would actually be fair to Red?

There is no doubt in my mind that they are losing money hand over fist with the Red One "100% buy-back" combined with selling modules for nothing.

Remember that when the majority of us bought our Reds, there was no Epic and no Scarlet. We were flying blind with only Jim's word that as the only ones willing to put our hard earned (and not inherited :emote_hippie dollars behind it, we would not be left in the cold.

Instead, it's everyone who DIDN'T buy a Red who feel left out.

Bizarre:willy_nilly:

To think of the Red One as a placeholder or trainer camera you can just sell back to Red at the end is really biting the hand that feeds our creativity.

I do understand your frustration, I really do. And I truly mean no offense or malice to your point of view.

But I think everyone needs to place the responsibility on themselves for holding out too long, trying to squeeze the best deal out of Red.

For me it was simple. I looked at my business, I looked at Red, I bought the Red, I brought it into my business, my business expanded exponentially.

Everything else is just a distraction.

I for one will be glad when this is all over and we can get back to normal life.

Buy a Scarlet, buy an Epic, buy a Red One. But do it because it's good for your business, not because you think Red is handing out free cameras in a raffle. :cheers2:

Cheers,

Jim

Jim you are correct.

 

[jimhare]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the response. I'm glad we can discuss this in a calm manner like rational humans. Many of these conversations have escalated into silly name calling!

Furthermore, I don't mean to seem argumentative, I really don't so I apologize in advance if any of this comes off as harsh.

But it does feel like many are trying to use this as a discount program or way to cut in line.

This is not a "reward for the owners club" it is simply getting the Red One owners to the new technology so we can all proceed together.

I'm sorry you didn't get a camera last year but I fail to see any connection with the current situation or why wanting a camera qualifies for what is essentially a paid upgrade.

The program has been manipulated and skewed by the public and that's unfortunate, but if you look back to the essence it is like this:

1. Some people bought Red Ones taking Jim's word that the camera would not become obsolete.

2. Red decided that there was a better way and wanted to get the Red One owners to the new design, though promising to keep improving the Red One if they couldn't afford to do so.

3. At some point they needed to say "hey, make an informed choice." That day ended up being October 30. They did not publicize that date, I imagine because they didn't want people buying Red Ones simply because they might get something better after the announcement.

4. Many wanted to take advantage of Red by purchasing a Red One now so they can obtain a discount and place in line for Epic, but also wanted all the facts before doing so. Isn't this like waiting to the end of the horse race before placing your bet?


I'm sorry but I honestly believe that anyone trying to get in on the Red One to obtain an early place in line, discount on modules or anything else, is not understanding the spirit of partnership we have with the company and frankly trying to get something out of them.

Anyway, I can tell you are a good person and only want the best tools to get on with your business. I know you aren't trying to take advantage of anyone.

But what you are asking is for Red to subsidize your business rather than sell you a camera.

Again, I apologize if my views seem harsh, I'm just at a bit of a loss about the reaction to the program.

I also think it's unfortunate that this issue seems to be drawing a line between owners and non-owners that never existed before.

All the best Peter.

Best Regards,

Jim

 

[Peter Matthes]

Hi Peter,

1) "But what you are asking is for Red to subsidize your business rather than sell you a camera."

2) "Isn't this like waiting to the end of the horse race before placing your bet?"

3) "I also think it's unfortunate that this issue seems to be drawing a line between owners and non-owners that never existed before."

Jim

1) Again ... I don't want anything for free. I really do not know how to be more clear about this. It escapes me how I am asking RED to pay for anything. If I had my druthers, I would never own a RED ONE body at all. I would ask that RED begin taking deposits for the Epic now, and anyone who puts down a deposit before a publicly announced date can receive an Epic-X (without free modules) immediately after Stage 3 is over.

2) If you believe this, what do you think of the last few hundred people to buy an R1 body? Are they less important than Off Hollywood with their "Hannibal" body or #007 "Bond"? Are they less important because of when they were able to buy a RED camera? Perhaps they did not hear about the RED ONE right away. Some people who bought the camera very early on (#10-1000) might resent someone who bought an R1 around #5000, or even on Oct 29th getting the same free modules.

There are already threads discussing if the ability to act on Stage 2 should prioritize someone over another who can only take advantage of Stage 3 ... regardless of their camera serial number. This could draw lines between owners.

3) I think this delivery system is drawing a line between owners and non-owners. I think you are very perceptive to see that. I don't know the solution, but I believe that this animosity could get worse as time goes on.

Since the Scarlet is another category of camera than the RED ONE altogether, how will priority be based on that?

If I own a lot of Oakley sunglasses, do I get first crack?

Half kidding.

Just some stuff to think about.

 

[Oliver Skibbe]

Peter,

Please provide a link/links to the post(s) you mention.

He is probably referring to those posts:

"[...] Also, is 30th gonna be a cut off date for us to to buy the REDONE in order to qualify for the Epic upgrade. "

"Oct. 30th is not the cutoff date to buy a RED ONE. That wouldn't be fair. RED ONE owners will have priority over non-RED ONE owners for priority.

 

[Martin Weiss]

Well, you can still buy a Red One today, and that still qualifies for an Epic upgrade.

 

[sergio arguello]

hello Peter

I believe i get it at this point after sifting through the posts. Correct me if Im wrong but it seems that your happy to even pay full
price but at a more timely point in the rollout
of epic so that you too have a more timely rentable period ie...epic fervor. when the kit
is at 2200.oo us per/day and not after we all have saturated the market down to 800 aday.

is that about right?

if so i get it, but thats how jim decided to repay us for our loyalty. To be upset is
understandable, but i advise letting it go. Dont go through the wall, but find a way around it.

all the best
Sergio

 

[David Battistella]

P.S. David Battistella … if you truly enjoy cigars … try a Davidoff No.2. or an AVO Intermezzo. They are both medium to mild, but they are out of this world.

P.P.S. Michael Halsell ... Go Yankees!

OK you called "some" of them trust fund kids, but I still think it's like buying stock. Even if they knew nothing about finance you might not question their reason to buy a particular stock.

Thanks for the cigar tip.

Right on, Yankees!

Anyhow. I appreciate the fact that you started this discussion and that you defend your arguments.

David

PS:

I wrote this in another online forum but I think it is worth repeating here:

I think a lot of these announcements are a marketing person's way of rooting out the truffle and forcing the competition to play their hands.

They have released ONE functioning camera product available to consumers since their inception and admittedly it has been a beta program since day one.

Watch closely.

Since their last announcement, which told the world that they were releasing a camera to compete with EVERY major camera system in the world, from a 2/3 inch to 617, to 28K and 3D, RED have not released another camera product. But what happened?

ARRI released their plans for digital cinema
Canon and Nikon released motion stills to preserve their markets.
Mamiya - silent
Hasselblad - silent

So the EPIC program is first because they can go back to existing customers first. Taking on the 5D and 7D market with a Scarlett is no simple task, neither is coming up with something as easy and competent as the EX-1 or EX-3.

I believe that a lot of this is a way to smoke out what others are doing to further refine where you fit in the marketplace and where there is money available from the consumer.

I love watching how RED unfolds stuff. I think that in marketing terms, they really rival NIKE. Really interesting to watch how people freak over prototypes and CAD quality renderings, but it also helps shape what they produce and where they put their resources. I do not doubt they will get there, but it's not going to happen in months.

EPIC first is a really great plan. Scarlet second, what do they do with all the parts from the trade in cameras from the EPIC program? Landfill? Repurpose?

David