The New Mac Pro is Here!!!

[AndreeMarkefors]

No, you can't build a part for part identical PC for cheap, but you can outrun/match the performance for $1800 after taxes.

Not really. You can match the compute performance (CPU/GPU) for a lot less money if you're building a Windows based machine yourself. But it will be a Windows machine.

If you just want "a computer" and want to build it yourself, that is one way to go. But if you want a Mac, you need to look at Apple's offerings and that excludes home built PCs.

I'm leaving Hackintoshes out, even if they are the Goldilocks computer for some.

 

[Brian Timmons]

This is an interesting post regarding the "INFINITY FABRIC" tech used to bridge the dual GPUs
in the 2k19 Mac Pros.

https://themagicalworldofsakie.wordpress.com/2019/06/10/infinity-fabric-and-finalcut-pro/

The post essentially summarizes some of the major points featured in the WWDC presentation on METAL.

https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/608/


One of the main points of interest is that INFINITY FABRIC is 5x faster than PCI 3 and much faster and efficient at transferring data between the CPU and the GPU. This in itself shows that performance should be considerably better with these APPLE MPX GPU modules in the Mac Pro than simply adding multiple GPU cards through regular PCI 3 slots.

It also seems that parts of METAL were rewritten to take advantage of all of this.

If anything, these systems do not seem to be just packaging PC parts and throwing an Apple tax on them.
Some are looking at these as typical PC towers in a Apple facade when they are much more in line with SGI or Sun workstations from years ago.
Considering the custom design, hardware (INFINITY FABRIC/MPX MODULES, FPGA based AFTERBURNER card) and extreme specs (i.e 1.5 TB ram) I think this is a fair analogy.

Will be interesting when these systems are benchmarked compared to other Macs and PCs but I'm willing to bet applications that fully support what the Mac Pros have to offer will get much greater performance boosts than people think.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

 

[Frank Glencairn]

.. But it will be a Windows machine.

No, it will be a Resolve (or whatever you make your money with) Machine.
You don't get paid for a OS, cause you don't get any paid work done in a OS.

One of the main points of interest is that INFINITY FABRIC is 5x faster than PCI 3 ...

You have nothing that can saturate a 16x PCI 3 in the first place and now PCI 4 is already out - that will go a long time, before it becomes a bottle neck for you.
For now, the Infinity Fabric it's like buying an Lamborghini in a country with an 80mph speed limit - if you have money to burn, be my guest.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

I agree with your post, but just want to address:

If anything, these systems do not seem to be just packaging PC parts and throwing an Apple tax on them.

General comment, not directed at you Brian:

AppleTax doesn't exist. What people mean by AppleTax would be true if Apple bought the same generic components from places like NewEgg and then sold "their" prebuilt computer in a generic case with an Apple logo on it, for a higher price. That is not what's happening, just like Brian says.

People who are OS agnostic, or simply 95%+ strictly number crunching oriented, tend to filter out everything (deliberately or not) that has to do with material selection, manufacturing and maintenance of coordinated hardware/software development.

It's quite alright to look at the price difference between a 'build-it-yourself' – ultimately running Windows computer, and a Mac with similar hardware components and conclude that the homebuilt (or prebuilt by another manufacturer) computer gives you more compute power per dollar. This is fact in 100% of cases, most likely.

Just realise that the price difference between these computers is not reflecting 'nothing'. To a Mac user, the price difference is money well spent for various individual reasons, reflecting added value for this user.

I'll even go as far as looking at the infamous $999 stand, as a good example. Anyone who looks at this stand, sees the price and then buys it, has gone though a thought process of why the price is justified in their specific case. The intricate balancing/load reducing mechanism and/or magnetic quick lock might be enough reason. I can see how someone who plans to bring their display with them in a hardcase several times per week might find such a stand "invaluable".

Just like people who buy RED's tactical top plate—a small piece of metal with drilled holes and a few basic connections—for $875 have their own reasons.

I find it cool listening to people talking about their own experiences (hopefully good) with cameras or computers or whatever, but it's extremely uncool when people dismiss entire groups of users (brand related or not), because they themselves lack insight.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

No, it will be a Resolve (or whatever you make your money with) Machine.
You don't get paid for a OS, cause you don't get any paid work done in a OS.

Well, not 'no'. It will be a Windows (or maybe Linux) machine (as that was my example).

But if in your case you can abstract the OS because you only use it as an invisible layer to allow you to leverage your hardware in a few specific apps, then you are free to chose components at your leisure and combine them as best you know how.

The thing I'm saying is you are 100% correct, in terms of your needs. But they don't apply to anyone else. But it's a pretty large planet. There are lots of other users with simliar goals and needs as you. Even if what you think don't apply to them, at least it aligns.

 

[Brian Timmons]

No, it will be a Resolve (or whatever you make your money with) Machine.
You don't get paid for a OS, cause you don't get any paid work done in a OS.

I'll try to steer clear of arguing semantics. Can it be agreed that an app like Resolve sits on top of a foundation provided by an OS
and that foundation (kernel, frameworks, drivers, development environment, design, and greater app ecosystem) has a considerable effect on
your experience and options when getting work done?

I'm definitely not trying to steer this into a platform war. Everyone has preferences and it's great to have options.
I personally hope Linux can grow to be a more layperson friendly platform.

You have nothing that can saturate a 16x PCI 3 in the first place and now PCI 4 is already out - that will go a long time, before it becomes a bottle neck for you.
For now, the Infinity Fabric it's like buying an Lamborghini in a country with an 80mph speed limit - if you have money to burn, be my guest.

https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/608/
Please go to 49:50

Again, there seems to be more going on than simply adding multiple GPU cards through regular PCI 3 slots
and it's demonstrably making a difference in how one can work.

They're already demonstrating multistream realtime 8K Prores with just the GPUs. Will see how other uses fair.

Fun note: RU's Mark Toia shot the wildlife footage in the demo.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

 

[Frank Glencairn]

I'll try to steer clear of arguing semantics. Can it be agreed that an app like Resolve sits on top of a foundation provided by an OS
and that foundation (kernel, frameworks, drivers, development environment, design, and greater app ecosystem) has a considerable effect on
your experience and options when getting work done?

I'm definitely not trying to steer this into a platform war. Everyone has preferences and it's great to have options.
I personally hope Linux can grow to be a more layperson friendly platform.



https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/608/

They're already demonstrating multistream realtime 8K Prores with just the GPUs. Will see how other uses fair.

Fun note: RU's Mark Toia shot the wildlife footage in the demo.


BRITIM/MEDIA

And they had to convert it to Prores first, since it couldn't handle three R3D 8K streams - even a 2 year old Treadripper system for a fraction of the price, can handle three 8K Prores streams (and why would you need that anyway - picture in picture?) - so what gives?

 

[Brian Timmons]

I find it cool listening to people talking about their own experiences (hopefully good) with cameras or computers or whatever, but it's extremely uncool when people dismiss entire groups of users (brand related or not), because they themselves lack insight.

Agreed. RED, Apple, nor any other company is perfect and criticism can be a good thing. The great companies (if not people) know how to leverage criticism into building better products. I do think some of the criticism, however, is questionable and not fully informed nor objective.

So far, it looks like Apple went much further than simply bundling beefier hardware into a new system. From the software up to the hardware it looks like they made novel and fundamental changes that are creating tangible results.

Having said that, we will see the full real world uses once the systems are out.

Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

 

[Brian Timmons]

And they had to convert it to Prores first, since it couldn't handle three R3D 8K streams - even a 2 year old Treadripper system for a fraction of the price, can handle three 8K Prores streams (and why would you need that anyway - picture in picture?) - so what gives?

RED is still prepping R3D for Metal.

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019...react-to-the-new-mac-pro-and-pro-display-xdr/

Red Digital Cinema
“Apple’s new hardware will bring a mind-blowing level of performance to Metal-accelerated, proxy-free R3D workflows in Final Cut Pro X that editors truly have never seen before. We are very excited to bring a Metal-optimized version of R3D in September.” — Jarred Land, president, Red Digital Cinema



Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

 

[DJ Meyer]

RED is still prepping R3D for Metal.

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019...react-to-the-new-mac-pro-and-pro-display-xdr/

Red Digital Cinema
“Apple’s new hardware will bring a mind-blowing level of performance to Metal-accelerated, proxy-free R3D workflows in Final Cut Pro X that editors truly have never seen before. We are very excited to bring a Metal-optimized version of R3D in September.” — Jarred Land, president, Red Digital Cinema



Brian Timmons
BRITIM/MEDIA

Let's hope so but the same was said about the Radeon Pro SSG, and that turned out to be a flop.

 

[Misha Engel]

The Radeon Pro SSG did exactly what was promised... caching.

I'm wondering how many 8k.R3D 5:1 24 fps streams the upcoming new highest end Threadripper can de- (crypte, code, compress) in real-time... 2 streams should be easy(double R9-3950x), 3 could be possible with a good AIO-cooler (triple R9-3950x). PCIe-4.0 should also be possible with the Radeon VII(in essence it's a MI50 with video outputs) with a firmware update.
Competition in the computer industry turned out to be good for the content creators.

 

[DJ Meyer]

The Radeon Pro SSG did exactly what was promised... caching..

I've got one here if you want it. In real world usage it's similar to a Geforce 1070.

Actually that was prior to the recent CUDA developments so I imagine the 1070 would be quicker in applications that have implemented it.

 

[Misha Engel]

I've got one here if you want it. In real world usage it's similar to a Geforce 1070.

Actually that was prior to the recent CUDA developments so I imagine the 1070 would be quicker in applications that have implemented it.

It's a VEGA 64 with 16 GB of RAM and 2 TB of SSD cache for the de-(everything) RAW.
VEGA 64 can debayer 8k.R3D 25 fps in real-time with ease (Resolve 15 Full-res premium).

A Geforce 1070 can debayer 8k.R3D at around 18 fps max (Resolve 15 Full-res premium).

I always wait for reviews before buying.

 

[DC Chavez]

Pics here: https://imgur.com/a/iwt7iVC

I've been exclusively an Apple guy since I was in college, and NOTHING could bring me back in to the Windows ecosystem. I had a Mac Pro trashcan that I bought in 2013 for $9,400 that was fast at the time... As I upgraded cameras, the resolutions kept getting bigger and bigger and playback during editing kept getting slower and slower. When Jarred revealed they had been working with NVIDIA for real-time playback of 8K footage. I was drooling... A major case of FOMO.

I had held out hope that during the WWDC conference they would unveil a new machine that would replace my current main machine. If you watched the broadcast, you know what happened next. I hopped on Amazon and bought parts to build an editing machine that would last me a while...

After consulting with the guys at Puget Systems, here is what I built:

- i9 9960X 16 core 3.1ghz processor
- 128GB DDR4 2666 RAM
- Dual Samsung 970 Pro 1TB NVMe SSD's
- Dual NVIDIA 2080 Ti Founders Edition GPU's
- Gigabyte Designare EX Motherboard
- Custom loop watercooling with CPU and GPU waterblocks
- dual radiator setup
- Phanteks Evolv X Case

Fun project to work on, and I am surprised at how "not terrible" the Windows transition has been. I just wish I could get my darn CMD key to function in windows. I have to undo 20 years of muscle memory with that one... The only other hiccup was getting the Windows installer to see the NVMe drive- but after 24 hours of searching, I found a driver on the Gigabyte site you have to load on the USB for installation. UGH.

All of this cost just over 8K and I willing to bet its going to outperform the base Mac Pro for quite some time...

 

[Bruce Allen]

Congrats DC! Yeah that's an awesome system

BTW, there are a couple of ways to remap the Ctrl key in Windows - what works best kinda depends on whether you're using a PC or a Mac keyboard.

One way is with Settings -> Keyboard -> Modifier Keys and the other way is with a utility. Apparently there's a thing called SharpKeys.

Or I guess you could just learn the Windows way slowly!

Kinda depends if you are planning on getting a Windows laptop next I guess...

http://dustyreagan.com/map-the-apple-key-to-ctrl-in-boot-camp/

Bruce Allen
www.bruceallen.tv

 

[Sergio Perez]

I think for us video editing folk the key is the Afterburner card. If it does what it stated, I think a 12 core or a 16 core is more than enough, with 128gb of ram and a Vega card, not even needing to go to the duo.

The key here is that card...

How about the resurfaced rumors of a 16" MacBook Pro? Why am I thinking that afterburner card might be sold separately for egpus and will work with MacBook Pro's? I remember a certain picture shared by a certain someone talking about the importance of the Thunderbolt 3 ports in MacBook Pro's...

 

[Will Duncan]

DC — That build is unreal, nice work!

I'm probably on year 14-15 of being exclusively Apple. I was holding out for my personal workstation to be the next Mac Pro, but that's fairly unlikely now. I've built out a few PCs for client projects, but they were more budget speed builds to accomplish big edits on short deadlines and it was a race to get parts and get them up and running. Nothing quite to the extent of what you made. The last one was an i9-9900K with a single 2080Ti and I've been very impressed so far. I wanted to water cool the GPU but was too pressed for time/parts.

If I miss anything while working in Windows, it's automator and scripts that I've cultvated a very refined workflow within over the years, maybe my macOS window management. But we're just in Resolve/Premiere 98% of the time these days anyways. The editors don't say much about the switch after the first day. Maybe a some extra cursing towards Adobe Premiere if anything.

 

[Misha Engel]

I think for us video editing folk the key is the Afterburner card. If it does what it stated, I think a 12 core or a 16 core is more than enough, with 128gb of ram and a Vega card, not even needing to go to the duo.

The key here is that card...

From my understanding the Afterburner card speeds up ProRes and ProRes RAW.

I don't see the benefit of the Afterburner card at the moment, since ProRes RAW HQ is claimed to be a light codec (5.7x lighter than REDCODE RAW 3:1 at DCI 24fps and 4.1x lighter than REDCODE RAW 5:1 at DCI 24fps).
The 16 core should be fast enough to handle ~12x 4k or ~3x 8k ProRes 4444XQ 24 fps streams.
Red is going to do GPU decoding on metal with MacOS (atleast that is what they said).
De-bayer stays the same, so you will need a lot of GPU horsepower when you want to de-bayer(full res premium) multiple 8k streams.

Maybe it can do some other magic tricks, but from the current announcements I don't see the benefits.

 

[andrewhake]

At 6K resolution, the panel is already built-to-order and the backlighting is done with off-the-shelf parts used by the latest generation of high-end gaming monitors, so doubling it to 1152 zones like the latest 4K Asus ProArt 32 will have, would require a more expensive customized design, which Apple can't justify with the already exorbitant price of the monitor.

Yep, Apple needs atleast a margin of 300%. The exterior is a new design, the rest is off the shelf parts with a custom made PCB.

Source(s)? Links?

I wish I could comment further but as usual both of these people are completely incorrect.

Keeping with the spirit of providing actual information in a sea of speculation. There is some good info at 7:10 of this WWDC19 talk on how macOS integrates with extended dynamic range displays (and has been able to since 10.11) and how it integrates with the new XDR display. https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/210/

And here at 1:43:52 for some good info on Metal and how it integrates with the new display as well as other info on Pro app developers. https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/103/

Also unrelated but interesting is HEVC Video with Alpha channel support across all the platforms. https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2019/506/

 

[Marc Wielage]

From my understanding the Afterburner card speeds up ProRes and ProRes RAW.

I have it on good authority it will be able to speed up other camera formats, too, before the end of the year. Possibly at product launch.