The need for Higher speed media for Dragon?

[Michael Lindsay]

Hi there

Unfortunately when shooting high frame rates at large frame sizes on Dragon (or Mx for that matter) we are forced to use high compression ratios. A wide back lit field on a master prime at 96fps 5k (T5.6-T11) can show some really nasty stuff. Now I am not complaining really as I apreciate the low cost media we have with the mini SSDs ... and most of the time I am happy near 10 to 1 but with some footage you just need to be nearer 5 to 1 (and if possible less)

What I would love to see is a faster option?.. I am willing to pay for it and don't mind it being a bit of a specialist thing.

Anyone else got money for better quality compression with HS shooting??

Regards

Michael L

 

[Brian Merlen]

nasty as in it needs some DEB? can you post examples? i always go as low compression as possible is my personal habit, i know the mini mags are supposed to be best for that i hear...and im sure one day new media will come along too...but its pricey to keep switching media, i just invested in more 1.8s this week so im not trying to go to mini mags until i have to

 

[Elsie N]

Hi there

Unfortunately when shooting high frame rates at large frame sizes on Dragon (or Mx for that matter) we are forced to use high compression ratios. A wide back lit field on a master prime at 96fps 5k (T5.6-T11) can show some really nasty stuff. Now I am not complaining really as I apreciate the low cost media we have with the mini SSDs ... and most of the time I am happy near 10 to 1 but with some footage you just need to be nearer 5 to 1 (and if possible less)

What I would love to see is a faster option?.. I am willing to pay for it and don't mind it being a bit of a specialist thing.

Anyone else got money for better quality compression with HS shooting??

Regards

Michael L

I'm just guessing but I'm thinking they've maxed out the SATA interface speed. Next pipeline is PCIe from what I've read. But that probably requires a new board with that interface so I'm thinking this is something that comes with the next sensor/board/media upgrade.

But when that happens, like you, I'm onboard.

 

[Phil Holland]

Hi there

Unfortunately when shooting high frame rates at large frame sizes on Dragon (or Mx for that matter) we are forced to use high compression ratios. A wide back lit field on a master prime at 96fps 5k (T5.6-T11) can show some really nasty stuff. Now I am not complaining really as I apreciate the low cost media we have with the mini SSDs ... and most of the time I am happy near 10 to 1 but with some footage you just need to be nearer 5 to 1 (and if possible less)

What I would love to see is a faster option?.. I am willing to pay for it and don't mind it being a bit of a specialist thing.

Anyone else got money for better quality compression with HS shooting??

I've recently made the switch to the MINI-MAGs and what you are describing is squarely one of their biggest pros. My last and next few jobs are very high speed oriented and the benefits of the lower REDCODE Compression Ratios at those higher frame rates are worth it to me. Also, the additional recording time I've found to be useful for how I work. I think there will be some slight "at speed" benefits for certain VFX shoots as well, but haven't done that testing yet.

They've been with me on a tough, tough shoot already maxing out the cards daily and they performed flawlessly. So there's no concerns on that front.

As for faster than MINI-MAG media in current brains? Don't know if that's possible at the moment and I have a feeling the future might be MINI-MAG related, but that's a few years away really.

 

[Elsie N]

I've recently made the switch to the MINI-MAGs and what you are describing is squarely one of their biggest pros. My last and next few jobs are very high speed oriented and the benefits of the lower REDCODE Compression Ratios at those higher frame rates are worth it to me. Also, the additional recording time I've found to be useful for how I work. I think there will be some slight "at speed" benefits for certain VFX shoots as well, but haven't done that testing yet.

They've been with me on a tough, tough shoot already maxing out the cards daily and they performed flawlessly. So there's no concerns on that front.

As for faster than MINI-MAG media in current brains? Don't know if that's possible at the moment and I have a feeling the future might be MINI-MAG related, but that's a few years away really.

Personally I hope you are wrong on that accord Phil, especially if the resolution goes up to 8 or 9k. PCIe m.2 SSDs will soon be ubiquitous in PCs, I suspect, and the Dragon-next will have real need for that kind of speed.

 

[Phil Holland]

Personally I hope you are wrong on that accord Phil, especially if the resolution goes up to 8 or 9k. PCIe m.2 SSDs will soon be ubiquitous in PCs, I suspect, and the Dragon-next will have real need for that kind of speed.

I mean more in the realm of form factor rather than current SATA restrictions.

 

[Elsie N]

I mean more in the realm of form factor rather than current SATA restrictions.

That could very well be. A current mini-mag could probably hold at least 2 m.2 sticks and maybe even more. 2 TB mini-mags anyone? '-)

 

[Michael Lindsay]

Sorry guys I wasn't very clear...

Phil: I already run Mini SSD on my main dragon and 'mini mags' have been great!...

What I was looking for is that when maxing out FPS and frame size there is an option (if the scene is full of high contrast, super high frequency detail ) to record at better compression ratios... I expect that this would be a 'cost more' option but that is fine. Trust me I am not being overly picky (or theoretical here). When shooting beauty comercials I am happy to shot 8 to 1 and never have problems when 12 to 1 is forced on me due to frame rate. It is the few times I have shot backlit wide trees and grass type stuff in slowmotion that I have seen the problem.

I could perhaps post a r3d trim next week but I was not really looking to air a problem/challenge but simply to get a show of hand from those interested in the solution. I suspect that Red (like any company) have to believe there is a market for a product to create it. if we want it and are happy to pay Red may oblige?


Thanks

Michael

 

[Charles Bergquist]

Yeah would be interested in a Mini-Mag Turbo Edition for high frame rate low compression with highly complex scenes. Shooting 48fps at 6K you're best is still 8:1 on Mini-Mags, it'd be great to see 4:1 at 48fps.

 

[Brian Merlen]

please PM me the link, i understand wanting discretion... thx

Sorry guys I wasn't very clear...

Phil: I already run Mini SSD on my main dragon and 'mini mags' have been great!...

What I was looking for is that when maxing out FPS and frame size there is an option (if the scene is full of high contrast, super high frequency detail ) to record at better compression ratios... I expect that this would be a 'cost more' option but that is fine. Trust me I am not being overly picky (or theoretical here). When shooting beauty comercials I am happy to shot 8 to 1 and never have problems when 12 to 1 is forced on me due to frame rate. It is the few times I have shot backlit wide trees and grass type stuff in slowmotion that I have seen the problem.

I could perhaps post a r3d trim next week but I was not really looking to air a problem/challenge but simply to get a show of hand from those interested in the solution. I suspect that Red (like any company) have to believe there is a market for a product to create it. if we want it and are happy to pay Red may oblige?


Thanks

Michael

 

[Michael Lindsay]

Will do.. Monday probably

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

nasty as in it needs some DEB? can you post examples? i always go as low compression as possible is my personal habit, i know the mini mags are supposed to be best for that i hear...and im sure one day new media will come along too...but its pricey to keep switching media, i just invested in more 1.8s this week so im not trying to go to mini mags until i have to

DEB only fixes red channel noise. REDCode noise is entirely different it's a form of macro noise that manifests mostly in the chroma channels (Hue/Saturation).

Some animated gifs to illustrate how noise gets more "chattery" at higher compression. 25MBs total. Might take a minute to load. (Note there is a good bit of atmospheric distortion in there too.

EDIT: Changed to links. All of them couldn't play back smoothly at the same time.
2:1
6:1
11:1
15:1
22:1

And yes, shooting 6K at 100fps is pretty much unusable half the time on the 1.8" media. The mini-mags are tempting but I don't like the 512GB being the only option.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

...And yes, shooting 6K at 100fps is pretty much unusable half the time on the 1.8" media. The mini-mags are tempting but I don't like the 512GB being the only option.

The mini mag is pretty essential... But I reckon not fast enough.

Thanks for the ref... Surely you would be up for paying for a turbo mini-mag?. Say if it allowed us to always do 6:1 or better.

Regards

Michael

Ps I wouldn't mind if it was a small mag... Say 128gb but 3times faster..I'd pay the same money for that option..

 

[Phil Holland]

My personal advice here based on several generations of potential technology that can end up in our camera bodies.

Don't let speculation run wild too much here. You're only looking at one part of a many pieced puzzle with so many unknown variables and many ways to advance what we currently have. There are many ways to skin a cat and put it back into it's skin.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

SATA3 can handle 6Gbps. That would be 6k 96fps @ 5:1 compression. I don't think SATA3 is the bottleneck yet.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

XR Capture Drives faster than Red Mini Mags?

 

[Trevor Meier]

This really has become an important issue. It's not much good to have a camera everyone expects to be able to shoot at 100fps at 6K WS when that's not truly a viable option given the current compression ratios. Some new media is urgently needed so we can take advantage of the Dragon's potential.

 

[Antony Newman]

Gavin,

If the 6Gb/s is interface bandwidth (which might include packet Framing, Error detection & error correction) would the useful R3D data rate be slower?

In the next 18 months I am expecting >8Tb SSD chips with write speeds of >16Gb/s.
Which interface standard should RED be betting on?

AJ

 

[Michael Lindsay]

This really has become an important issue. It's not much good to have a camera everyone expects to be able to shoot at 100fps at 6K WS when that's not truly a viable option given the current compression ratios. Some new media is urgently needed so we can take advantage of the Dragon's potential.

You can def shoot at max frame size and max frame rate for lots and lots of scenes. Most interior wides are fine... For one job earlier in the year we built a small forest indoors and due to the chosen Tstop (T1.3)twas able to shoot at max frame size/frame rates no problem at all ...even when doing a pick up super wide of a sunrise forest in Tenerife there was no issue as the Fstop and atmosphere was limiting superfine detail. It is actually very hard to see this issue when doing my day job. When in art directed situations or shooting people you don't see it. It is why I was testing to see if there is a market for Turbo media?? I would imagine it would be a special order item?... For a 128 mag capable of 3times the speed I would happily pay the same as the 512gb mini

also the compression issue is not restricted to 6k... 5k HD throughs it up just as easily (if you shoot at 96fps with mini-mags)...

I was testing my new firecrest NDs the other day in the park @ 5k HD .... Wanted to see colour on grass and fine edges from backlit branches (3/4 back lit with master prime). I wanted to look at a lighter ND so upped the frame rate... Result was unless test material

Thanks Michael

On the plus side turbo mags may allow a few more fps;-)

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

You can def shoot at max frame size and max frame rate for lots and lots of scenes.

The problem is "It's fine until it isn't". And if you literally can't pull a mag and check it on a laptop after every setup to guarantee that everything looked fine on most shoots. And if you can't risk losing 20% of your setups and reshooting on another day (almost every shoot) then it's not actually acceptable.