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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The LOW CON+SLIGHT HALATION OLPF thread

Mark K. said:
Yes, I personally prefer the look of Alexa's images to anything else out there digitally at the moment. But there are times when the more contrasty and resolute image Epic provides is what I need, and there are times when the clarity and naturalism of Sony Cinealtas are what I want. These sensors are our filmstocks these days, and I for one, would prefer we keep a little variety.
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Your post makes perfect sense Mark. Paradoxically, given what you say, you should fully support the Dragon Interchangeable OLPF system, instead of asking yourself why you need it!

To achieve different looks, do you want to rent an Alexa, a Dragon, a Sony in each particular case? I bet you don't.
With RED's system, you would be able to achieve these "different film stocks" looks by simply swapping a $200 OLPF instead of renting/buying different cameras.

I am ALL for a film-like (or Alexa-like) OLPF for the EXACT reasons you mention in your post.

Happy Holidays!
 
Medavoym said:
To achieve different looks, do you want to rent an Alexa, a Dragon, a Sony in each particular case? I bet you don't.
With RED's system, you would be able to achieve these "different film stocks" looks by simply swapping a $200 OLPF instead of renting/buying different cameras.

I am ALL for a film-like (or Alexa-like) OLPF for the EXACT reasons you mention in your post.
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That would be great but those looks are affected with much more factors than simply OLPF.

Regardless, different OLPFs for specific optical look design carry a creative potential.
 
I don't think we should get overly caught up in nomenclature (35mm v. Alexa) - I like how George called it from the beginning low con + slight halation look in the thread title - let's go with that, so we don't get caught up in hair-splitting about the nomenclature.

Because adding a low con 1/8 or 1/4 is ALREADY an established practice for getting a more 35mm filmic look or for producing a closer match to Alexa. I don't think adding this option to the arsenal takes anything away from Dragon's own baseline look - quite the opposite. I love the fact that RED can mimic all comers in one camera - that's a big, big deal, possibly one of those innovations which can tip the balance of the buyer's scales....

It gives us CHOICES and choices are good.

The point is, this is a common filtration option for establishing a baseline out-of-the-camera look which is popular among users. Let's make it part of our OLPF arsenal.

What is being requested is to create an interchangeable OLPF with this look so that we can eliminate stacking filters. We can stack all the filters we want in front of the camera but want this baseline look from behind the lens.

Let's strip out the oogly-boogly politics of calling this anything - we can call it the Tangerine Dream OLPF for all I care - and just get back to the basic reality that low con + slight halation is a desireable baseline look to be able to apply to the Dragon sensor.

No one who doesn't like the idea needs to buy it - but there clearly are a lot of people who do like the idea - so let's encourage RED to make it.
 
Mark K. said:
These sensors are our filmstocks these days, and I for one, would prefer we keep a little variety.
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We've always had swappable filters via a matte box. We now have swappable color science. We also have swappable OLPFs. How long before we have swappable sensors?

Fact is, whether we like it or not, want it or not, this is all headed towards a modular pack approach where you will swap out a sensor+olpf+colorscience module pack for one look vs another as easily as you swap lenses today.

Note I said headed towards... before anyone goes into the installation accuracy needed etc.

Anyways, having a third party deliver a "Alexa-like OLPF + Color science" package is a win-win for RED. Alexa then becomes a subset of the RED look instead of a whatever it is today.

When RED is hampered by the sensor design itself, is when RED will hit its limits, and that can only be addressed by the next gen sensor. But we are nowhere near that stage of this game.

So bring on those OLPFs! ;)
 
Nikhil Kamkolkar said:
Anyways, having a third party deliver a "Alexa-like OLPF + Color science" package is a win-win for RED. Alexa then becomes a subset of the RED look instead of a whatever it is today.
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Alexa look is not just in OLPF + color science.
There is sensor and electronics in between. :)

A proper colorist can deal with the color part. Texture is a different ballgame.
For a start Alexa is a 3K camera. With a purpose to mimic a 3K resolving medium.
 
Nikhil Kamkolkar said:
btw, interesting workshop i'm watching right now - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1S8Q7t8c01Y
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Thanks for the link.

It's ironic how many times Tom Stern and Reed Morano mention that they are constantly striving to achieve a more textured, filmic, rough, 35mm-like image on the new digital sensors. Either by the use of diffusion filters, or older lenses, or through lighting. We are talking about ASC cinematographers here. It was interesting hearing them talk constantly about how digital is "too sharp", "too good" almost for feature filmmaking.

I think everyone who is shooting narrative material knows precisely what they are talking about.

Do I want the Dragon to be very sharp and very good? YES! Dragon is shooting everything now, from stills and magazine covers to commercials and all kinds of advertising.
Do I also want a Low Con/Slight Halation OLPF for narrative material, as a "baked in" (optional) 35mm film-like image? YES again.

Options are good.
This is what RED is all about.
Dragon can (and will be) the most versatile camera on the market.





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I like the new DC2 color space! I find it a bit more like film (and yes, a bit more like Alexa).

It would go very well with a "35mm film OLPF" :-)

Just saying. Still no official word from RED, but we all hope it's in the works.

In the meantime, congrats to RED (and Graeme) for the new DC2, it is definitely an improvement over DC!
 
Watched some 80s and 90s movies on Blu-Ray during Christmas holidays and immediately noticed that look, along with slight halation the browns are different, the greens are different, the yellows are different, especially overexposed. It's good that the color palettes of some discontinued still and motion picture film stocks are being preserved in form of various LUTs and film look presets. For a couple sequences I needed a slight effect of cross-processed film (just a tad bit) and curve that emulated creamy soft overexposure rolloff, I can actually dial that look now instead of messing with the neg. Even the grain is not the most important part of the look, filmic color palette is. LowCon OLPF will be welcome addition. Choice is great, even if STH one is mighty fine already.
 
Furthur to my previous post, whilst it does not have a direct relevence to the Dragon sensor, here is another short clip shot on the SI2K with a Formatt behind the lens 1/8 contrast filter installed. A routine 25 points of post sharpening has been applied. The default look ( near to REC709 ) has been kept with no other exposure adjustments. I discovered that in real-world condtions, with the 1/8 contrast filter, I was tending to over-expose with light from behind camera when using the histogram. I should have used the in-camera spot meter or a handheld spot meter. You will also observe a LOT of blend in backlit foliage.


The test was for an ENG lens with a long reach I am assessing for events work involving long continuous reliable recording times.

With affordable 4K+ digital cinema now available, it may soon be feather-duster time for the SI2K P+S Technik camera-recorder as a digital cinema camera even if it is reliable.

It remains a cool thing to be able to set up a DVR2 project and a Premiere CS6 project on a 1TB fast SSD drive, shoot the footage files in the Premiere project linked folder, pull the drive from the camera dock, shove it into the edit station dock and go. Wisdom dictates taking safety copies off first.

Anyway, I must stop rambling and dwelling on things that can no longer be.


If there is anyone with a Dragon in Western Australia close-handy to Roleystone, I can possibly cut a test piece of the right size to shove down the Dragon's throat in front of the existing OLPF panel. Formatt kindly sent me some larger pieces from which they had lazercut the SI2K sized panels. Out of fairness to Formatt, I would not be able to release this material permanently only observe it being installed for test purposes and then returned to my keeping. There is also the issue of possibly voiding warranty to consider.

The 1/8 contrast filter surfaces would probably end up a bit grubby as this material is the unprotected base, not the protected final product. This added piece WILL however affect the collimation of all lenses, being an additional 1mm thick planar optic in the path. It may leave wide lenses especially, unable to achieve infinity focus unless they have a focus movement over-run and not precise infinity end-limits.

The ENG lens fortunately has a back-focus adjustment which fixed this issue for my test. Here is the clip.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCUSLbd8PE4
 
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Plus one for the slight halation oplf - my Alexa seems to bloom stong hihglights slightly and this, in my opinion, is one of the reasons that the image is more film like. Red footage seems super digital by comparison (some people may prefer this look but I'm a fan of the slightly smoother film look). If it goes ahead put me on a buy list.
 
There is so much discussion by RU members on Film and the attributes Red gets right when they compare Dragon to Film this extra step should be a no-brainer.

No-one is clamoring for specialist IR OLPFs in the way users want a LC-HAL... Apart from the Goldilocks OLPF this is the ONLY option I can see with voices behind it.

I think RED will get round to it, question is: How long? I hope in the lifetime of the Dragon camera.
 
@Dennis; black pro-mist tries to maintain contrast whilst softening/blooming the highlights, whereas a low-con can get really milky down in the shadows (and, obviously, lower contrast). The differences between regular pro-mist and low-con are more subtle, but again, pro-mists add halation to highlights (which isn't as apparent on straight low-cons).

Something worth mentioning (that I picked up from David Mullen.... ASC) is that because Hollywood Black Magic is two filters in one -- BPM and CS (I think) -- a 1/8 HBM is actually stronger than a 1/8 BPM or 1/8 CS (as it's both combined), so if you need a weaker strength, use whichever individual filter suits your scene more...
 
thanks Mike.

reducing contrast can sometimes be favourable, but I definitely don't like the idea of milky shadows, but again it depends on the scene and what look you're going for.

With a 1/8 strength lowcon would you still get real milky blacks for a low-key scene say.. or in that case would it be subtle enough and only appear on light sources, or specular highlights?

Probably time to get some of each and do some tests.


As for filtering on OLPF or not debate, I see the potential paradox of having too many possible combinations and hence causing lots of grief and/or confusion to those who aren't really "into" filtering but having said that, if you are into filtering and know what you are getting and can live with a specific strength behind the lens for a potential project then I think it makes a lot of sense to have.
 
Low con filters essentially spread the light from the highlights to the shadows which allow you to lower exposure without having to crush the lower end. Dennis, I have some Low-cons and pro mist filters if you want to play with them.
 
Hi Bob - Happy New Year!

That's a good point about avoiding having to crush the lower end, and thanks for the offer to test some of your filters. I'm just almost finished getting my CP.2 set together and now looking at larger sized filters so trying to sort out what I want. I have really low strength fog and regular pro mist filters but they won't be large enough for the PL's.. and really I want halation without any or much softening.

I guess no amount of filters is ever enough :S
 
These are indeed in the midway prototype stage right now. I've been shooting with a bunch of frankenstein versions to get things dialed in for production.

I will be posting a poll thread shortly to gather opinions on one aspect of their design.
 
Any examples of work shot on the lowcon olpf? Also wondering how it affects sensitivity compared to the skin tone option from red?
 
These are only just starting to ship now. You'll start to see real world examples soon. There are a few images showing the type of effect at www.kippertie.com on our store.

Sensitivity on STH and LLO versions is matched to the originals. We reworked the glass completely to account for the exposure shift introduced by the diffusion particles.
 
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