The "I need a new PC to edit RED" Myth

[Carelton Holt]

Hi Marcos,
I'm curious, why the GeForce card rather than a Quadro card? It seems on the nVidia site that the GeForce cards are all more suited to gaming and the Quadro geared for 3D and video editing.

Andrew:

Well, some of us who had state of the art PCs in 2005 NEED this upgrade anyways, as rendering even 2K has gotten taxing on a 32-bit XP pro machine. I will be getting a gaming PC with an Nvidia GTX 590 3GB card for around 4K. But like I said, I needed an upgrade even without RED files.

Marcos

 

[Grant H]

Yes I built this rig from the ground up. It is maxed out completely on upgrades in CPU, RAM, and Video. Look, just do some rendering to realize where your system is at fault at. My system when I am rendering, despite it's Intel i7 990x 6 core CPU, is severely lacking in CPU, I can tell because it shoots straight up to 100% when I'm rendering a 3 minute AE composition. I can also tell that I am lacking in Video ram, because when I render in PP, and the CPU is at around 70% my computer is lagging quite a bit, and I don't dare do anything else, or it might lock up. Yes I do have dual 1GB GeForce 460 video cards running in SLI config. but Adobe does not recognize a second video card. There is only a 1GB channel for my video to render through. And it does the same thing with bigger Geforce cards like the GeForce 590 that has (2) 1.5GB cards either, because then again it is 2 separate video cards on one board. Yes it has double the cuda cores, which does help a lot when gaming, but it however does not when Rendering.

You guys, this is not the only reason this profession is expensive. If you want clean product outcome, your going to have to save up the money for the products that it takes to buy them...( I know, I know it's a foreign concept in America to actually save, but it can be done... I pay for all of my equipment with money saved...) Or use a credit card.... It's up to you, lol. Either way if you want a good clean finished product that will keep your customers coming back over and over, and still protect your investment, from heat mostly, because those GeForce cards are hotter than hell's attic, then your going to have to come up off of some cash, some real cash.

Me personally, am going with a SR-2 classified motherboard as my base. Why? well because it is really upgradable, and it's a dual CPU board, which allows for twice as many cores . Next I'm going with the Nvidia Quadro 6000 video card. Why? Well I figure with a 6GB video rendering channel, I will be able to render to my hearts content without pegging the odometer, and burning up everything in my system within 2 years time. I'm also going with Xeon cores because in general they don't run as hot, and they are more reliable, and THIS IS WHAT THEY ARE BUILT FOR!

I'm sure you guys with your GeForce cards will be fine... for a while at least, because you know just as well as I do that they run hotter than hot, and whilst your CPU is doing just fine right now, it is running at a constant 130-150 degrees while rendering and burning all of it's long term life away. I'm going to protect my investment and buy the products that were made to do the things I'm going to do with them. I am not a gamer, so I will not be building a gaming rig, I am a video editor, so I will be building a video editing rig. And that means filling it with products that were made for the professional sector.

Oh and I forgot to mention the sometimes choppy video I get after rendering with my current rig... You guys, I'm trying to say this in love but, this is a very expensive business to get into, and if you don't have the money, either get another job, or find another hobby. This is the reason that you have a very small percentage of people who make professional films, and while the percentage of people making indi films is much bigger, the percentage of people making amateur short films is far greater than that of the previous two categories.

I suppose if your just going to shoot weddings all your life, then you'll probably be fine, but I have higher aspirations.

Hi Jon,

It sounds to me like you need more than one physical CPU, that seems to be your bottleneck.

 

[William Graydon]

Without more info, I would say: as is, it will be usable but frustrating. If you upgrade the RAM it will help slightly (by the way, you can max it out at 32GB). R3Ds need either a RedRocket card (which you can't install in an iMac, excepting for in an external thunderbolt PCI enclosure [coming to market soon, I believe] ) or CPU cores. So you will have to play with it and see if you can run 1/4 debayer or 1/2, but it will peg all your cores to 100% if you try to get overzealous.

Thank you for your response. Forgive me but what do you mean by 1/4 debater or 1/2?

Thanks again!

 

[Jon Thomasberg]

Hi Jon,

It sounds to me like you need more than one physical CPU, that seems to be your bottleneck.

He is going with more than one physical CPU, Grant. The EVGA Classified SR-2 motherboard is a dual-socket XEON mobo capable of being overclocked and can handle 48 GB of RAM. So 2x 5680 or 5690s will give him 12Core/24Thread (when Hyperthreading enabled) with each core at 3.3 or 3.4 GHz respectively and can be overclocked to well over 4.0GHz in a 24/7 operation. In addition, the QPI between the XEONs is blazing fast. Frankly, if you went to the apple (dot) com and configured the most expensive MacPro you can, comparatively speaking, Jon's SR-2 will leave a MacPro in the dust. There is also another method that is a bit more obscure called underclocking, in which the base CPU is set for lower than stock, but timed to overcrank to massive power when called upon in Hyperthreading. While benchmarks don't always reflect real-word use cases and seldom are run that way 24/7, want some benchmarks as a barometer? Go check out the leaderboard scores on PPBM5, Cinebench and Geekbench x64. One comes to mind, check geekbench for a score of over 40,000 (http://browse.geekbench.ca/geekbench2/view/500630), same machine he got a 24.7 Cinebench 1.5 CPU test. Says its a MacPro -- its not. 'Tutor' built a SR-2 hackintosh (with 2x 5680s). Proper fully-spec'd MacPros score Geekbench x64 @~25,000. But again, doing something like that is an entusiast concoction, not for the "something went wrong, time to go to the Genius Bar" type of person, as no one will support it outside of the guy that built it (you).

HTH

PS - Welcome to REDUSER!

 

[Jon Jones]

Wow Jon, you said it... That's right, that SR-2, she's the one for me... But as of my current rig, yes it's a CPU bottleneck when rendering AE compositions, but in PP my CPU only runs at around 70%, it is def. my graphics processor in that respect. I can render HDRx with my current config in PP with no problem whatsoever, but if I want any additional AE renders added in, then I am maxed out. BTW... I read my current post, and I wasn't trying to be critical with wedding videographers, besides, I have done weddings, and it's fun. I was just showing that in order to move forward in life a person just has to set his or her sights on the stars.... That way if you miss, at least you will hit the moon.

He is going with more than one physical CPU, Grant. The EVGA Classified SR-2 motherboard is a dual-socket XEON mobo capable of being overclocked and can handle 48 GB of RAM. So 2x 5680 or 5690s will give him 12Core/24Thread (when Hyperthreading enabled) with each core at 3.3 or 3.4 GHz respectively and can be overclocked to well over 4.0GHz in a 24/7 operation. In addition, the QPI between the XEONs is blazing fast. Frankly, if you went to the apple (dot) com and configured the most expensive MacPro you can, comparatively speaking, Jon's SR-2 will leave a MacPro in the dust. There is also another method that is a bit more obscure called underclocking, in which the base CPU is set for lower than stock, but timed to overcrank to massive power when called upon in Hyperthreading. While benchmarks don't always reflect real-word use cases and seldom are run that way 24/7, want some benchmarks as a barometer? Go check out the leaderboard scores on PPBM5, Cinebench and Geekbench x64. One comes to mind, check geekbench for a score of over 40,000 (http://browse.geekbench.ca/geekbench2/view/500630), same machine he got a 24.7 Cinebench 1.5 CPU test. Says its a MacPro -- its not. 'Tutor' built a SR-2 hackintosh (with 2x 5680s). Proper fully-spec'd MacPros score Geekbench x64 @~25,000. But again, doing something like that is an entusiast concoction, not for the "something went wrong, time to go to the Genius Bar" type of person, as no one will support it outside of the guy that built it (you).

HTH

PS - Welcome to REDUSER!

 

[Jon Jones]

As for the RED ROCKET, I really have no idea about it, I haven't done much research. I only have info on what I have personal experience with. I would like to know more about it though, maybe I can save some money instead of buying a second Nvidia Quadro 6000.

 

[Grant H]

He is going with more than one physical CPU, Grant. The EVGA Classified SR-2 motherboard is a dual-socket XEON mobo capable of being overclocked and can handle 48 GB of RAM. So 2x 5680 or 5690s will give him 12Core/24Thread (when Hyperthreading enabled) with each core at 3.3 or 3.4 GHz respectively and can be overclocked to well over 4.0GHz in a 24/7 operation. In addition, the QPI between the XEONs is blazing fast. Frankly, if you went to the apple (dot) com and configured the most expensive MacPro you can, comparatively speaking, Jon's SR-2 will leave a MacPro in the dust. There is also another method that is a bit more obscure called underclocking, in which the base CPU is set for lower than stock, but timed to overcrank to massive power when called upon in Hyperthreading. While benchmarks don't always reflect real-word use cases and seldom are run that way 24/7, want some benchmarks as a barometer? Go check out the leaderboard scores on PPBM5, Cinebench and Geekbench x64. One comes to mind, check geekbench for a score of over 40,000 (http://browse.geekbench.ca/geekbench2/view/500630), same machine he got a 24.7 Cinebench 1.5 CPU test. Says its a MacPro -- its not. 'Tutor' built a SR-2 hackintosh (with 2x 5680s). Proper fully-spec'd MacPros score Geekbench x64 @~25,000. But again, doing something like that is an entusiast concoction, not for the "something went wrong, time to go to the Genius Bar" type of person, as no one will support it outside of the guy that built it (you).

HTH

PS - Welcome to REDUSER!

Apologies, I didn't delve too much further into his post about obtaining a dual-core motherboard. I guess he already answered his performance bottleneck himself!

My observation that his CPU was his bottleneck was with his current build. Sorry for not thoroughly reading the post correctly -- and thanks for the welcome! I'm excited to delve in.

 

[Grant H]

As for the RED ROCKET, I really have no idea about it, I haven't done much research. I only have info on what I have personal experience with. I would like to know more about it though, maybe I can save some money instead of buying a second Nvidia Quadro 6000.

Unless you're solely using the cards for crunching R3D, I'd strongly suggest a second Quadro, especially if you're using products that can take advantage of it, such as Premier Pro or Resolve

 

[Tim Nitsch]

Yes I built this rig from the ground up. It is maxed out completely on upgrades in CPU, RAM, and Video. Look, just do some rendering to realize where your system is at fault at. My system when I am rendering, despite it's Intel i7 990x 6 core CPU, is severely lacking in CPU, I can tell because it shoots straight up to 100% when I'm rendering a 3 minute AE composition. I can also tell that I am lacking in Video ram, because when I render in PP, and the CPU is at around 70% my computer is lagging quite a bit, and I don't dare do anything else, or it might lock up. Yes I do have dual 1GB GeForce 460 video cards running in SLI config. but Adobe does not recognize a second video card. There is only a 1GB channel for my video to render through. And it does the same thing with bigger Geforce cards like the GeForce 590 that has (2) 1.5GB cards either, because then again it is 2 separate video cards on one board. Yes it has double the cuda cores, which does help a lot when gaming, but it however does not when Rendering.

You guys, this is not the only reason this profession is expensive. If you want clean product outcome, your going to have to save up the money for the products that it takes to buy them...( I know, I know it's a foreign concept in America to actually save, but it can be done... I pay for all of my equipment with money saved...) Or use a credit card.... It's up to you, lol. Either way if you want a good clean finished product that will keep your customers coming back over and over, and still protect your investment, from heat mostly, because those GeForce cards are hotter than hell's attic, then your going to have to come up off of some cash, some real cash.

Me personally, am going with a SR-2 classified motherboard as my base. Why? well because it is really upgradable, and it's a dual CPU board, which allows for twice as many cores . Next I'm going with the Nvidia Quadro 6000 video card. Why? Well I figure with a 6GB video rendering channel, I will be able to render to my hearts content without pegging the odometer, and burning up everything in my system within 2 years time. I'm also going with Xeon cores because in general they don't run as hot, and they are more reliable, and THIS IS WHAT THEY ARE BUILT FOR!

I'm sure you guys with your GeForce cards will be fine... for a while at least, because you know just as well as I do that they run hotter than hot, and whilst your CPU is doing just fine right now, it is running at a constant 130-150 degrees while rendering and burning all of it's long term life away. I'm going to protect my investment and buy the products that were made to do the things I'm going to do with them. I am not a gamer, so I will not be building a gaming rig, I am a video editor, so I will be building a video editing rig. And that means filling it with products that were made for the professional sector.

Oh and I forgot to mention the sometimes choppy video I get after rendering with my current rig... You guys, I'm trying to say this in love but, this is a very expensive business to get into, and if you don't have the money, either get another job, or find another hobby. This is the reason that you have a very small percentage of people who make professional films, and while the percentage of people making indi films is much bigger, the percentage of people making amateur short films is far greater than that of the previous two categories.

I suppose if your just going to shoot weddings all your life, then you'll probably be fine, but I have higher aspirations.

The all knowing and all powerful jim jones has spoken...

 

[Marcos Montenegro]

Carelton:

The main reason is money

However, I've seen a few video card tests that would suggest the difference is not as big of an advantage as the price justifies. In fact, some of these tests had the quadros not crack the top 10. I'll look for the link and I'll post it if I find it. Of course, these were only measuring speed, so maybe the Quadros are better at video post, but I also feel that today's pc's have enough power to bypass expensive video-only hardware. Anyone else have a GeForce?

Hi Marcos,
I'm curious, why the GeForce card rather than a Quadro card? It seems on the nVidia site that the GeForce cards are all more suited to gaming and the Quadro geared for 3D and video editing.

 

[Jon Jones]

Correcto, money, money, money is the issue. GeForce cards run really hot, especially the higher end 580's, and 590's. However the Quadros, even if they are more expensive are worth it big time. I mean this is what they are made for. GeForce cards are made for gaming, that's why they are cheap. I have dual 1GB GeForce cards right now that cost me less than $500 for both! GeForce cards are kinda like hyper little boys, lol. While the Quadros are like older more rugged adults, they are faster in other areas, like wisdom, and knowledge.

Carelton:

The main reason is money

However, I've seen a few video card tests that would suggest the difference is not as big of an advantage as the price justifies. In fact, some of these tests had the quadros not crack the top 10. I'll look for the link and I'll post it if I find it. Of course, these were only measuring speed, so maybe the Quadros are better at video post, but I also feel that today's pc's have enough power to bypass expensive video-only hardware. Anyone else have a GeForce?

 

[William Graydon]

I guess sometimes it's better when someone doesn't respond (not being sarcastic) because it forces us who are ambitious to find answers ourselves.

I am referring to debayering in order to play R3d files in realtime.

 

[Jon Jones]

I am not sure about the RED Rocket, although I have been doing some reading about it. It seems to me that RED wouldn't manufacture something that is meaningless, and those of us that don't know much about it, should do more research in the appropriate Crucial Ordnance file.

I guess sometimes it's better when someone doesn't respond (not being sarcastic) because it forces us who are ambitious to find answers ourselves.

I am referring to debayering in order to play R3d files in realtime.

 

[AndrewThomas]

I edit R1 files on my MacbookPro. If I want to hand off files to edit, I can get nearly realtime transcodes at 1/4 debayer and about 3x realtime at 1/2 good. Having Premiere Pro 5.5, I usually just edit from the original r3ds. I don't think you need some crazy powerful machine, or a rocket. These things are definitely helpful and worth considering if you have the budget for it. I just don't want anybody to be discouraged from shooting Red because they think they won't be able edit it without dropping another $10k on a new computer and a rocket.

 

[Lee Saxon]

If someone asked me to build them a $5k PC I honestly don't even know what I would put in it.

I can't think of anything I would've added to the system I just built which cost only $2k on... (and that includes wasting $250 on an over-the-top case).

 

[Joshua Raven]

Andrew:

Well, some of us who had state of the art PCs in 2005 NEED this upgrade anyways, as rendering even 2K has gotten taxing on a 32-bit XP pro machine. I will be getting a gaming PC with an Nvidia GTX 590 3GB card for around 4K. But like I said, I needed an upgrade even without RED files.

Marcos

Hi Marcos,
Speaking from personal experience, I would advise NOT to purchase the GTX 590. I made this mistake, only to discover Premiere and many other programs are not set up for SLI, which, even though the 590 fits into a single slot, it is essentially recognized as 2 cards. I returned the 590 and got the 3 GB version of the 580, which crushed the performance of the 590 when dealing with R3d's. Spend the savings on the maximum amount of processor power you can afford. Cheers - Joshua

 

[Jon Jones]

One word... Nvidia Quadro 6000, you said you wouldn't know what to put in it, lol. Or an SR-2 MB with dual XEON CPU's. What about SSD's and RAID. You said you honestly don't know, well.... you do now, lol.

If someone asked me to build them a $5k PC I honestly don't even know what I would put in it.

I can't think of anything I would've added to the system I just built which cost only $2k on... (and that includes wasting $250 on an over-the-top case).

 

[Mike P.]

Ironically Jon, the SR-2 is a "gaming" motherboard (does it support SandyBridge-E procs? Are there any Xeon SB-Es?)...

Also, in terms of Adobe Premiere and After Effects specifically, which I assume is what most REDusers would use it for, I *think* the difference between Quadro and Regular/High-End consumer is negligible. CAD, design, and 3D animation applications will definitely run better on Quadro (because of hardware acceleration for certain types of computer generated rendering tech), but video production, not so much. MPE is more CUDA core and memory speed/bandwidth related, and while you could get a 4gb or 6gb or whatever Quadros, the 3GB 580s are a third the price and run way faster (clockspeed wise) than the Quadros (meaning they're potentially better at MPE acceleration.)

As for RedRocket, I know it's worth it, but it would very difficult for me to get one when I could get dual octo-core (with HT for 32 simultaneous threads, booyar!) on an SR-2, with 64gbs or RAM and a 3gb 580 and it'd be cheaper... Adobe doesn't take advantage of SLI, so the 590 would be wasted... unless you end up gaming on the same system (which, admittedly, would probably be very difficult not to.) I hate the idea of specialized hardware (RR) when the money could be spent on gear that can do tons more stuff faster. Alas, when a client "wants" something, generally speaking, they "want it now." ... I wonder if RED would ever consider GPU/CUDA acceleration of .r3d rendering so as to avoid having to purchase an RR... I guess that'd be pretty stupid though, as it'd be cutting off a revenue stream... Maybe someone wicked-smart could figure out a way to do it...

 

[Carter Cammack]

Can anyone confirm the "huge performance gain" of SSD Caching on the latest Intel X79 systems?
The newer ASUS PGX79 boards allow for more caching than Windows default limitation.
I'm wondering if I can put my page file and cache on a 90G Corsair GT and really utilize the 6GB/S speeds.

 

[Jon Jones]

Here is a screen shot of an 11 min 4k render in Adobe with my machine.

Again, I have the Intel Extreme 990x 6 core with HT tech., dual 1 gig video cards, ssd's, and other things as well.

To me this is not acceptable. I do not like when my CPU's are pegged out for 13 hours at a time, I don't know about you guys but I care about CPU longevity. I didn't spend $5000 just to run my pc with the petal to the metal all the time. I am building a new rig that will sustain my high end imaging for years to come.