The Hobbit at 48fps...

[Jeff J Daniels]

haha, I've totally had a 24p dream. Then the movie ended and switched back to real-life speed.

I give a ton of respect to the Hobbit team for pushing tech and making the decision, as it's theirs to make.

 

[paulherrin]

haha, I've totally had a 24p dream. Then the movie ended and switched back to real-life speed.

I give a ton of respect to the Hobbit team for pushing tech and making the decision, as it's theirs to make.

haha, that's kinda cool. i had a dream where i watched a youtube video... it was lame.

 

[mikeburton]

yeah, i'd say if you went all the way til that point in the movie without being interested or engaged... the 48fps becomes a pretty irrelevant factor, no? suspension of disbelief, or what i would call 'listening' is kind of an all-or-nothing decision. engagement is a shared responsibility between teller and listener (director/audience). it's like an unspoken covenant or contract. you're agreeing to give it a fair shot when you go in and give it your full attention. anything less is a breach of contract. you don't have to go in, and you can leave or go to sleep anytime you want. you're not strapped to the chair, you're not taxed for the movie, nor are your eyeballs forced open.

Paul, seriously, when did you become the official spokesperson for this thread? This has nothing to do with me not "listening" its just that what i was "hearing" didn't sound good to me, although, in all fairness once the film got to the scene with Gollum it got better, not because I was "Getting used to it" but because the dialogue and blocking / interaction finally had me entertained. It was at this point that I didn't realize that i was along for the ride, because this point of the story was interesting to watch. All of the psychological nonsense will never justify the fact that the technology got in the way of the art, not supported it, FOR ME. I don't need you to analyze that i may not be a sophisticated enough audience member to appreciate this "Glorious new technology" that you seem to be so high on. If it worked for you, great, but there was no "contract broken" between the filmmaker and myself. It just didn't work...for me, and perhaps the film didn't resinate on the whole either. But, that doesn't sidetrack my appreciation for the achievements made here.

 

[paulherrin]

sorry dude, didn't mean to step on your sandwich...

you're right, i've probably said enough for now, but this is just such an interesting thing to think about.

 

[Michael Millichamp]

From the first Aerial shot, I was hooked. This was the closest thing to being in Middle Earth that I will experience. Seeing it in IMAX 3D HFR was amazing. I thought I wasn't going to like it, but before I purchased tickets I told myself, give it a fair chance. Forget everything you know about movies and go in wanting to be apart of the film, and that is exactly what happened. Through the cave battle, I felt like I was with them. I totally understand people not liking it, but me personally, I was definitely a fan.

 

[mikeburton]

sorry dude, didn't mean to step on your sandwich...

you're right, i've probably said enough for now, but this is just such an interesting thing to think about.

I didn't mean to sound harsh so I apologize. You have your opinion and I have mine. Neither one of us is right or wrong. Besides, like I've said, it's just a movie and I've never had a bad day at the movies

 

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

Saw it yesterday.

The movie was good, but it was far from great, in my opinion. It got much better in the second half.

Just some quick pro/cons:

PRO
- CGI was amazing. Even in 48fps. The trolls and the goblins had me scanning the image with open mouth in how real it looked.
- Martin Freeman was good as Bilbo.
- The image had a lot of detail. Amazing that this is a 2K finish.
- In some scenes, namely the dwarfs fighting with the trolls, the whole chase under the ground with the goblins, ... The 48fps 3D worked like a charm. The slow motion scene between Thorin and the Ork fighting had amazing clarity.
- The 48fps definately helped the 3D effect. 3D in general was not disturbing, and I saw this with 2 people normally having lots of eye-strain after a movie. They both found the 3D not distracting and easy on the eyes.

CON:
- the movie was uneven in the first half, and not always that moving. Emotionally, this was a far cry from LOTR: The Fellowship (which I liked the most of the trilogy)
- Too many small deus ex machina's.
- The exposure/grading (both?) in the Shire was sometimes very videoish. Very bright, not that much contrast, it seemed.
- The 48fps look... I'm not a big fan. I tried to like it. I did. And yes, in some scenes it was nice. But to be honest... I like the 24fps much more. Yes, I saw many shots that REALLY looked sped-up (although I know they weren't), some sets really looked more like stages (could have been in the grading too), I didn't often like how the movement of people looked in 48fps, sometimes small errors in camera movement were much more noticeable, sometimes I didn't like how the acting came out in 48fps in dramatic moments, ...

So all in all, I think the movie had some very good things, and some weak things. And not convinced by the 48fps look... For the 3D it definately helped, but I'm not a big 3D fan anyway, although it was one of the best 3D examples I've seen in live action.
And if I would have to choose, I would choose 2D 24fps.

Ow, and before anyone says I'm a 60 year old guy who doesn't want to adapt: I'm a 25year old guy, and yes, I've also grown up with video-games. (and movies).

 

[Mark Phelan]

Ow, and before anyone says I'm a 60 year old guy who doesn't want to adapt: I'm a 25year old guy, and yes, I've also grown up with video-games. (and movies).

Well that makes me feel younger since I actually did like it. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Elsie N]

I recently bought a pair of house shoes with a hard sole that protruded past the toes. Kept catching that toe on the carpet as I walked. Hated the shoes until I adapted. In the same vein, I bought a pair of Sketchers shoes. At first it felt like I might fall over when walking in those things. I liked the feel of them but hated the fact they seemed unsteady. Now, after getting used to them I wouldn't wear anything else. Bought a 240 Hz TV set. Didn't like the look of the picture at first... until I got used to it. And while I still have a 60 Hz set that still looks fine, I watch the 240 Hz set more often.

Haven't seen any HFR content yet. I hope when I do that I have a similar experience as I did with the shoes and the TV.

 

[Tyrone Braithwaite]

I think there is an element of too much choice going on here too.

Most folk just want to go to the cinema, they don't want to choose between 2D,3D,24fps,48fps,IMAX or sniffovision etc.

I'm happy with the option (If I've got to make a choice) of 2D 24fps or 3D 48fps. That would simplify it for a lot of punters.

 

[Mark Phelan]

I think there is an element of too much choice going on here too.

Most folk just want to go to the cinema, they don't want to choose between 2D,3D,24fps,48fps,IMAX or sniffovision etc.

I'm happy with the option (If I've got to make a choice) of 2D 24fps or 3D 48fps. That would simplify it for a lot of punters.

Wait a second, sniffovision? They're showing The Hobbit in the UK with sniffovision? You guys have everything.

 

[paulherrin]

I didn't mean to sound harsh so I apologize. You have your opinion and I have mine. Neither one of us is right or wrong. Besides, like I've said, it's just a movie and I've never had a bad day at the movies

glad we can get along. no reason to get entrenched here. 24 frames aren't going away. neither are the developing technologies. good news.

@tyrone, you're absolutely right. but... the reality is not all places can show HFR (or even 3d), so they had to address it somehow. plus, in the states we like it the way we like it and it's been standard to offer 2d and 3d versions... i don't know how i feel about this. part of me thinks that's ridiculous and part of me thinks it's really not a big deal. in either case, it's not a totally bad way to transition, except that it enables some people to totally avoid the new experiences. there will probably always be nostalgic theaters... at least for the next 20 years - although i'd guess in decreasing numbers from this point forward.

 

[paulherrin]

Wait a second, sniffovision? They're showing The Hobbit in the UK with sniffovision? You guys have everything.

better book a flight...

 

[Mark Phelan]

better book a flight...

HA! Of all the various "visions" that have come and gone, smell-o-vision had to be the worst idea yet. It doesn't take much of an imagination to see how horribly wrong the idea could get in short order. And as much as I enjoyed The Hobbit, it would most definitely have to be put on the list of films I'd never want to experience olfactorily.

 

[Scott Crawley]

HA! Of all the various "visions" that have come and gone, smell-o-vision had to be the worst idea yet. It doesn't take much of an imagination to see how horribly wrong the idea could get in short order. And as much as I enjoyed The Hobbit, it would most definitely have to be put on the list of films I'd never want to experience olfactorily.

You don't want to experience PJ's interpretation of what a troll smells like or the foul stench of Mordor? Hmmm... How about the smell of your horse's mane and saddle leather on a misty morning, as you head out on your journey? I'm all for immersive, bring it on!

 

[David Rasberry]

The frame rate never bothered me. A couple of deep shots in Bilbo's house during the party with the dwarves did. Shallow DOF might have worked aesthetically in 2D, but it really looked out of place in 3d. Not like one would see the scene if one was standing there. I wanted that background in focus.

This movie is a groundbreaking experiment in a new aesthetic art form. One would expect some things to work well and not others.

I did not think that the opening scenes in the Shire looked over saturated, but I live in a southeastern temperate rainforest where that kind of intense vibrant color is common in nature at certain times of the year. I expect NZ is much the same.

I wonder how much one's perception of color is affected by one's native environment. LA colors to me always look flat gray and dingy, as do many movies these days.

 

[paulherrin]

cinematography [spoiler alert]

cinematography [spoiler alert]

so just to transition away from the tech-talk, i'd like to talk about the visual storytelling altogether.

i'm not going to talk about tolkien's storytelling, other than to say i am amazed at his work and love the folk elements he used to create a mythological landscape.

so, the hobbit, translated by peter jackson (et al). [spoilers]


i did not particularly like the opening sequence. bilbo reading. not engaging. lacks life and authenticity. part of that had to do with the visual sequence, but what most bothered me was the way that he was reading. it needed to transcend the literary frame somehow in the reading, but it was really just rather dull, despite the storyline itself. contrast this to when the story was 'told' of thorin. incredible story'telling' by the actor and director here. also think about the opening of the first lotr, and how the story of the ring was told.

for me, it started when bilbo lit his pipe (it should have just started there after a prologue, like in lotr) and gandalf showed up. but where i really started to get into it was when the dwarves gathered around the fire to sing their song... that was kind of cool. and that was the moment we were initiated into the journey, bilbo peers into the flames (and so do we). the use of fire and smoke through the narrative was a key thematic symbol (and the technology made it legit) of positive, conscious though-action that battles against the ogre ruling over the darkness in the depths of the unconscious (see the goblin king). this brings up a good point. the water at rivendel was simply stunning all the way around (at 48fps). it was such a beautiful, magical peace in that place, where the healing waters flow. right after, the rocks in the Thunder battle were very visceral and gritty and dark, a stark transition that prepared them for their descent into the underworld (and psyche). when bilbo's stuck on his first riddle, the wind (and the reflecting pool of water collected at the bottom of the cave, the meeting of the conscious with the unconscious) helps him out. again, at the very end, there's a magical moment when gandalf sends a message on the wind and we're swept away in a magic flight with the eagles. that was my favorite part. just like flying in a dream, seeing through eagle's eyes. notice here the alchemy of the four elements: fire, water, earth, wind. granted the symbolic significance is embedded in the source, but jackson translated these elements extremely well. it is in these that the 48 frames made an other-worldy experience through the style of magical realism.

as they first flew through the mountains and transitioned into morning, the dark mountains point to the brightening sky. this kind of chiaroscuro is throughout the film. the moonlit scenes in rivendell were magic. and there's no better example than the descent into the abyss with the goblin king's fire while bilbo meets gollum. this was the ultimate meeting of light and darkness. the contrast between gollums glazed and open eyes is spectacular. the performance here is award-winning. the mouth of the cave exit is the meeting of light and darkness, and gollum cannot cross it. right at sunset they pass through the threshold, only to run into more trouble, which must, again, be fought with firelight in the dark of night. it is in this fire-action that bilbo steps up. the contrast is stark from his character at the beginning of the movie to his strong resolve in this moment. this is where the symbol of fire shines light as the source of fear, or courage.

there is no question in my mind that peter jackson is a master of vision.

 

[paulherrin]

You don't want to experience PJ's interpretation of what a troll smells like or the foul stench of Mordor? Hmmm... How about the smell of your horse's mane and saddle leather on a misty morning, as you head out on your journey? I'm all for immersive, bring it on!

hehe... sight and sound seem to be the important immersing factors for storytelling. though i will say the smell of a campfire or a beer or a smoke adds significantly to an experience. if we want to use touch and taste and smell, it should be in the para-narrative event. and we should be thinking about those things when we think about our 'gallery spaces' and the kind of venues we need for proper presentation. so many of us are content to make the thing and throw it to the wolves.

 

[Mark Phelan]

You don't want to experience PJ's interpretation of what a troll smells like or the foul stench of Mordor? Hmmm... How about the smell of your horse's mane and saddle leather on a misty morning, as you head out on your journey? I'm all for immersive, bring it on!

Not particularly. Since the sense of smell is the most powerful of all senses, it has the most potential, for better and worse. It reminds me of the time I filmed five operations a couple years ago. Now I'm not squeamish with the goings on of the operating room, but if there is one thing that will send most folks over the edge are the smells of an OR. My assistant couldn't even go into the room, much less sit outside and listen to the bone saw, et al. That was when my R1 was "christened" a RED camera from overspray.

As with all aspects of life, just because we can, doesn't mean we should.

 

[paulherrin]

Not particularly. Since the sense of smell is the most powerful of all senses, it has the most potential, for better and worse. It reminds me of the time I filmed five operations a couple years ago. Now I'm not squeamish with the goings on of the operating room, but if there is one thing that will send most folks over the edge are the smells of an OR. My assistant couldn't even go into the room, much less sit outside and listen to the bone saw, et al. That was when my R1 was "christened" a RED camera from overspray.

As with all aspects of life, just because we can, doesn't mean we should.

great story!