The Gentleman's Underwater Bubble Blower Thread

[Ryan Canon]

No, it is a Weapon / Scarlet-W / Raven housing, and there is always development going on...

The accessory back for REDTOUCH 4.7 came later, but is available now. PN is 16229.

Lots of gametes in the water, but this gives an idea of form factor.

Most feel that a top mounted articulating monitor is still the best form factor to actually shoot with, but some see benefits in a more streamlined rig that is easier to move in water, and better for freediving. Both options are available... This uses the DSMC2 pogo monitor contacts, so it can still be used simultaneously with an SDI fed SmallHD 502 for a dual display rig.

An external housing for REDTOUCH 7 (both DSMC1 Lemo and DSMC2 Pogo Configs) is coming, only awaiting construction of what had better be the most amazing cable ever produced based on its lead time. Side by side with 502 below (forgive the perspective distortion, the size difference is understated here):

This is also new, for those that want it... Utility of the RS focal lengths is debatable, but resolving power isn't.

 

[Michael Dalton]

Ryan, really nice work on the housing. Love the A7sII housing I got from you, were putting our to some good use in Indonesia. Can't wait to add this in the near future.

 

[Michael Hastings]

snip:

People should not be banned unless they are really offensive, harassing or similar.

Well, that's why he was banned: "offensive, harassing and similar" :wink5:

As one of the people he was pretty offensive to, I don't really care if they want to "un-ban" him since I'm confident enough in what I do and say that I tend to just ignore people like that and let disparaging comments slide off like "water off a shark's back".

Pawel is a sharp guy and does have something to offer but he had a tendency to oversell some of his ideas.

snip "and is willing to provide evidence as to why this idea might work as well or even better than the current technology it should be embraced. In regards to Pawel, he copped a lot of aggression (As I read it) and yet many underwater housing manufacturers followed suit and ended up modifying their designs to accept Nikonos glass. .

First of all, Pawel didn't "cop any aggression" until after he had laid a lot of aggression on others - the first bubble blowers thread was shut down because of it.

Secondly, to set the record straight, I was the first to propose using the Nikonos lenses on Red cameras back in 2007, as well as making the first underwater housing for ANY red camera (Serial Number 8). IIRC I proposed using Nikonos lenses even before ANY Red cameras had been delivered - as I was also involved in the development of the Birger Canon electronic mount for the Red one and was exploring all of the options because both the electronic EF mount and the Nikonos lenses eliminated the need for gears in the housing (which I'm not particularly fond of.). Although I outlined the relatively minor engineering using Nikonos lenses would involve, we did not pursue it because the widest lens - the Nikonos 15mm (which if you know your history is really a 20mm lens) is not as wide (94 degrees on a full frame 36mmx24mm film/sensor size) as what had become the norm for high end underwater video - i.e. in the 100 to 110 degrees range and secondly since the RedOne and Epics were S35/APS-C size it would only be about 75 degrees.

In addition, You may not be aware but until recently ALL third party mounts were banned by RED although the first 200 Birger Canon mounts were grandfathered in since it had been a joint RED/Birger announcement. Not only would using another mount void the warranty on the camera but it would void the upgrade path to Epic-X which was a pretty huge deal. Use of Nikonos lenses as I proposed originally and the way that Pawel eventually did it, required the front plate of the housing with the Nikonos mount to replace and become the mount on the camera so would void the warranty. It also is a little dangerous since if the lens leaks (and remember ALL of those lenses are 20-30 years old) there is a very short and direct path to the sensor and electronics. One should also remember that the Nikonos lenses were made to be used with a camera weighing just 1.5 pounds and the lens mount itself isn't super strong. Bumping the reef, or a wreck or the side of the boat getting it in or out of the water with a 1.5 pound camera isn't that dangerous, but when attached to a twenty or thirty pound housing/camera system, knocking it like that could easily dislodge the lens which would obviously be disastrous, so it just isn't as robust of a setup.

It also requires a fair amount of time and careful effort to switch back to a regular mount for normal topside shooting - where with our housing (and probably Gates, Nauticam, etc.) you can remove the camera and be shooting topside in a matter of seconds.

It was never clear to me if Pawel eventually got a waiver from Red for his mount/housing but if the whole Nikonos thing was more practical many of us would have been willing to void the warranty once we got our Epic-X upgrades but the combination of limited angle of view, danger with leaks, and cumbersome switching to normal shooting made it impractical for most of us.

With all of that said, the availability of full frame 8K "VistaVision" sensors will make it more worthwhile to revisit the Nikonos concept. As you mentioned, Gates has already developed a pretty ingenious solution using the more modern Nikonos RS lenses, but to suggest that this had something to do with Pawel's version is probably not accurate. John Ellerbrock has been around here for a long time and either saw my posts or simply thought of it himself since ultimately it is a fairly obvious possibility to explore for anyone that has been around underwater photography since the film days.

I may look at it again myself, but unfortunately there is only a limited market for $10K to $30K underwater housings for $15K to $50K cameras and it is already becoming fairly saturated. And the 8K camera isn't even listed in the Red Store so no idea when you can actually get one - RED has stated that even the preorders from quite a while ago are just trickling out.

 

[Ryan Canon]

There was also this, way back at Photokina 2010...

http://www.wetpixel.com/articles/nauticam-na-nex5-demonstrated-at-photokina

 

[Ross Isaacs]

Interesting Nauticam housing with RS mount. Is Nauticam doing a Weapon housing with an RS mount?

 

[Matt Hutchings]

No, it is a Weapon / Scarlet-W / Raven housing, and there is always development going on...

The accessory back for REDTOUCH 4.7 came later, but is available now. PN is 16229.

Ah! Great. I was a little disappointed when I saw the Weapon LT didn't have that option. I'm sure the top mounted 502 is probably more user friendly (you must have to hunker down a little to see clearly in the 4.7 window) but it's one of the reasons that housing is so streamlined.

Annoyingly I haven't seen the accessory back advertised in the UK. Ryan, I presume it is an entire replacement rear section of the housing?

Any idea when the REDTOUCH 7 housing will be shipping?

 

[Lee Kelly]

Well, that's why he was banned: "offensive, harassing and similar" :wink5:

As one of the people he was pretty offensive to, I don't really care if they want to "un-ban" him since I'm confident enough in what I do and say that I tend to just ignore people like that and let disparaging comments slide off like "water off a shark's back".

Pawel is a sharp guy and does have something to offer but he had a tendency to oversell some of his ideas.




First of all, Pawel didn't "cop any aggression" until after he had laid a lot of aggression on others - the first bubble blowers thread was shut down because of it.





Thanks for the detailed response Michael Hastings.
I cant have known who was the first person to suggest using those lenses on a modern camera but one person actually did it and seemed excited with the engineering and was happy to shake up the establishment in regards to claims that were being thrown back at him. I read through the whole thread when I became a member because I find it all fascinating.
My perspective on this was that he claimed to be able to resolve actual sensor resolution underwater, whereas what we all knew as a standard system, with domes or flat ports were not actually producing what we as consumers figured they were. Sure you can shoot on a 5k sensor but whats the point if youre not actually getting anywhere near that resolution to your sensor?
Even today it seems nobody wanted to enter into a scientific test of this, not even for the development of the underwater filmmaking craft. I thought that was a shame. I understand that people have millions invested in a particular line of product and to have someone try to show there are much better results going a different direction is very threatening.

What I did read was a response that was fairly immature trying to refute the quality claims being shown with Nikonos lenses. Pawel doesnt mince his words and has a scientific brain from what it seems, with no time to beat around the bush and that clearly ruffled some feathers. Especially when it came to evidence that the sensor wasnt giving the nicest images underwater, or even above water due to colour channel contamination.

I dont know what conversations may have been had behind the scenes but his ideas and solutions may have been better welcomed than banned. Thats the bottom line. It looked like the establishment didnt like this guy rocking the boat and wanted him silenced. It wasnt necessary.

As for the angle of view of that 15mm, its amazing. maybe if youre only shooting that wide angle dome port style where you want to be close but wide, its not as ideal but for shooting beauty, underwater with human or animal talent the rectilinear qualities of that lens, while still being pretty wide if we are being honest and with close focus ability is as good as it gets. That being said, I always push for the 15mm in my work but often DPs and directors ask me to swap it out for a longer lens, 28 or 35mm option, so the not wide enough thing doesnt apply for what I am working on. Horses for courses I guess.

Personally i love this forum and the fact there is a place for all the underwater crew to get excited and 99.9% it is all positive and supportive which is how it should be. The way it should stay.

 

[Ryan Canon]

Interesting Nauticam housing with RS mount. Is Nauticam doing a Weapon housing with an RS mount?

That image is a weapon housing with RS mount. I have one that is working well, and can't wait to see what 8k compatibility looks like.

The mount and housing adaptor is about $5000, and built to order.

 

[Ryan Canon]

Ah! Great. I was a little disappointed when I saw the Weapon LT didn't have that option. I'm sure the top mounted 502 is probably more user friendly (you must have to hunker down a little to see clearly in the 4.7 window) but it's one of the reasons that housing is so streamlined.

Annoyingly I haven't seen the accessory back advertised in the UK. Ryan, I presume it is an entire replacement rear section of the housing?

Any idea when the REDTOUCH 7 housing will be shipping?

Fair enough, documentation could be better.

Yes, it is a replacement housing back. Only one housing sku, 16109, with the standard back. Accessory monitor backs ( at this time only REDTOUCH 4.7) sold separately. The biggest reason this part was so late was just waiting for a suitable third party monitor cable, but wooden camera to the rescue.

It would not be wise to even guess as to a REDTOUCH 7 ship date, we have a very small order with a very big cable company. When it is here, it will be good though.

 

[Matt Hutchings]

Great! Good old Wooden Camera.

Thanks for the info Ryan. Much appreciated.

 

[John J Ellerbrock]

Nikonos RS History

Nikonos RS History

You're right Mike.

For the record, Bob Cranston brought the concept of Nikonos adaptations to me right about the same time in 2007 -- the RED ONE days. For Bob -- having spent decades acquiring photos on Nikonos cameras -- it was an instinctive pairing of classic optics with new digital technology. Kudos to Pawel for conjuring the same idea, and acting on it. I just waited until the economics made sense with RS lenses.

......Gates has already developed a pretty ingenious solution using the more modern Nikonos RS lenses, but to suggest that this had something to do with Pawel's version is probably not accurate. John Ellerbrock has been around here for a long time and either saw my posts or simply thought of it himself since ultimately it is a fairly obvious possibility to explore for anyone that has been around underwater photography since the film days.

 

[John J Ellerbrock]

Nikonos RS Compatibility with RED 8K Vista Vision Sensor

Nikonos RS Compatibility with RED 8K Vista Vision Sensor

Over the weekend I decided to tackle the burning question: will the Nikonos RS lenses would work with the 8KVV sensor? So I cooked up a test and fixtures to determine the answer. (It helps having Solidworks, milling machines, and 3D printers to compliment creativity.)

You can read the full writeup on the Gates website: http://www.gateshousings.com/uncategorized/nikonos-rs-compatibility-red-8k-vista-vision-sensor/

Summary results:

· 13mm – Image circle covers the FF35 precisely. No margin, so it won't cover 8KFF. It's a hard edge, too, and will likely show up as such. Your options are a) a lesser 8K resolution like 8K 2:1 or 8K HD: or b) zoom in post.
· 20-35mm – At 20mm the lens covers FF35 precisely as well. But zooming in a bit renders the image circle larger, so from 22 to 35mm FL it covers the 8KFF sensor.
· 28mm – covers 8KFF sensor.
· 50mm – covers 8KFF sensor.




J-

 

[Lee Kelly]

Hi John,

Was there a reason you guys went with the RS lenses instead of the older Nikonos glass? Were RS auto focus-able? Is that auto focus able to be activated via the Dragon/Weapon camera with those lenses? Pretty cool if they can!
8kVV is going to be a real interesting time for many lenses which we use. I am not sure if my Nikonos 15mm will work and I would say my 12mm wont! That being said, perhaps we just set our sights on Helium s35 8k and keep smiling.

 

[Ryan Canon]

That is encouraging news. Most of the interest I've seen in the RS lenses is geared toward IMAX projects, shooting a 1.43:1 aspect ratio. 13mm will be more than fine here. IMAX 1.43:1 using the full sensor height works out to a 37.7mm image circle, smaller than FF35, so any lens that works on that format will work in that application.

 

[John J Ellerbrock]

Nikonos RS Lenses -- Gates Adapter Kit

Nikonos RS Lenses -- Gates Adapter Kit

There are several reasons for using RS lenses, Lee:

* As you note, the RS are newer and by all regards superior to the older Nikonos lenses.
* The standard Nikon AF mount gave me access to focus / iris through the mount. I could then map those functions to the existing focus / iris housing controls -- the same ones used for other lens / port options.
* Relatedly, this access allowed me to design an interchangeable adapter kit for the DEEP EPIC / DRAGON / WEAPON housings. The kit can be installed / removed as needed by the user, switching between Nikonos RS and other lenses (Cine, DSLR, Anamorphic, whatever).

We make every effort to preserve the base housing system intact, a single platform for a wide variety of applications (cinema, natural history, broadcast, research, etc). The DEEP WEAPON upgrade is a perfect example. After upgrading, a Gates DEEP WEAPON is compatible with all DSMC1 and DSMC2 cameras.

J-

Hi John,

Was there a reason you guys went with the RS lenses instead of the older Nikonos glass? Were RS auto focus-able? Is that auto focus able to be activated via the Dragon/Weapon camera with those lenses? Pretty cool if they can!
8kVV is going to be a real interesting time for many lenses which we use. I am not sure if my Nikonos 15mm will work and I would say my 12mm wont! That being said, perhaps we just set our sights on Helium s35 8k and keep smiling.

 

[Lee Kelly]

How do we feel about talking rates for a second?
Of course we all work in different markets and regions but I am interested in gauging the different rates that DPs and underwater operators are charging for their time, camera kits, housings etc.

 

[Tom Hamilton]

Lots of variables there;

Rights to the footage, prep time and effort required, movie/commercial/doco etc shoot, length of shoot, travel days, equipment pre-positioning, post requirements, crew composition, boat operator/dive site selection, work/entry visas, overage fees in case of delays or skunk weather/sea conditions; just a partial list here. I quote on an individual basis after a careful review with the client on the stated goals of the project.

What is your method Lee?

 

[Marc Thorpe]

Lots of variables there;

Rights to the footage, prep time and effort required, movie/commercial/doco etc shoot, length of shoot, travel days, equipment pre-positioning, post requirements, crew composition, boat operator/dive site selection, work/entry visas, overage fees in case of delays or skunk weather/sea conditions; just a partial list here. I quote on an individual basis after a careful review with the client on the stated goals of the project.

What is your method Lee?

Not to mention rarity of the scene captured. Generic or 'first time ever filmed' changes rates exponentially.

 

[Lee Kelly]

Hmmm lots to consider

 

[Lee Kelly]

interesting