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The Gentleman's Underwater Bubble Blower Thread

Im not sure the issue with the VV is the lens... I used a Red 17-50 v2 at 7k wide screen On my Weapon Helium S35 to be able to see whats coming on the edge of the frame and this was with the Gates setup dome port and what I noticed was the left and right side of the frame at the widest setting was pretty fuzzy. I did some different setups and I can't confirm but feel that the port was the reason for this fuzziness. Is it possible that the port is not designed for setups this wide lenses set to VV widths??? Or even at S35 FF Weapon setups.
Ive used this same setup out side the housing on dry land and not noticed as much soft edges... I do get vignette but not the type of softness I saw UW..
 
Tom Hamilton said:
Hi Russ,

I guess you've seen the Scubacam unit here:

http://www.scubacam.net/red-epic-family.html

It's a tad pricey for what it does, but may be what you're looking for?

Advice duly noted re chems on the ports, maybe as Johnny says, the potato juice method is still the best and safest way to go. Widely available at your local grocers, and in a bonus pinch, a healthy snack too...

Another topic here, for any takers. Recently participated in an underwater test of the VistaVision behind a 9.25" dome port, we were at Blue Heron Bridge in Florida, subject matter mostly small to macro, the 8K sensor is impossibly wide, edges unacceptably soft. Does anyone have the poop on shooting 8K dome successfully?
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info Tom,, I have one all ready. What Im really looking for is to be able to put the camera with say a 16-35 or 11-24 lens batt.. and slide it in to a hard UW housing that is just barely larger than the camera its self. Think for extreme camera work... Fallowing someone off a boat in to the water or more of a Surf Camera housing with out so much bulk... Or boxy ness... Everything I have seen is like an Aluminum shoebox with a bunch of wing nuts holding the front port on. I would love to mill the same shape as the camera out of a bullet and add say 1/2 inch around the camera or work it up in Carbon Fiber. It doesn't have to make it to the bottom of the sea... Just survive being driven down say 2 to 3 meters... Lite weight, fast in and out, and solid build but not over built... which is what I feel some of the surf housings are.

Gee all this talk makes me want to just take my camera out to the garage and put it in a plastic bag and work up a little resin and wrap it with a couple layers of matt and see what comes of it.
 
M_Young said:
Been reading this thread for the longest time but never posted in it.

So my first post here.

I am considering buying into the RED system for underwater footage. Wondering how shooting a "land lens" through a dome stacks up to shooting through a Nikonos "wet" lens?

I have no horse in this race yet. I dont have a RED, any underwater housing or a Nikonos - so no bias on my part.

I am wondering if the Nikonos is the way to go Vs a housed land lens. How would a RED stack up underwater Vs something like an F23 2/3 sensor using digiprimes/digizooms ?

Apart from size, is there any reason to insist on a RED system vs something like an F65?

Just trying to find the right system to focus on and can think of no better place to get advice on this BEFORE i buy anything.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Hi M Underscore,

If you decide to go with the Red system, a Gates housing will give you the flexibility to switch freely between the Nikonos lenses and just about any 'land lens' ever built. There are many housing/lens options out there though, I think most of them have been covered in this thread at some point or another.

Probably best to determine your budget and what type of underwater work you'll be doing, go from there.
 
A quick followup on VV EF Lens Coverage - I found notes from the test day I mentioned above (I don't own the files) and it isn't actually clear whether I had cutoff with Canon 16-35 f/2.8L II or Canon 16-34 f/4L. I also noted that the 8-15 at 15mm did not vignette when focused at around 1', where it will be behind a dome, and that might actually make it usable in some cases. Cutoff happened at longer focusing distances.

I also have this saved in evernote from Phil Holland on facebook:

The Sigma Cine 14mm T2 is a lens to behold. Probably one of the largest aspherical elements around and it's right up front at the business end. Took a look at RED Dragon 8K VV coverage today at Duclos and it covers really, really well with only close focus causing heavy vignetting in the corners at 8K FF, 8K HD and WS are clear and it looks pretty nice. The Zeiss 15mm (one of my favorites) and Laowa 12mm are the other great choices for 8K Dragon if you need ultra-wide rectilinear optics around T2.9. Next up from there is the Canon zoom at f/4 for 11mm.
Click to expand...

I have a Sigma 14 that I really like. I'm amazed that Laowa 12 actually covers, but I like that too.

I should have taken better VV notes when testing Dragon 8K VV in the past, but I really thought I'd have a camera within the period of time required for me to forget things. That didn't happen, but I am forgetting things faster and faster...
 
Tom,

Thanks for the input. It seems to me that the housing will cost as much as if not more than the camera itself. If I go RED it would be Epic Dragon. I would be buying used to get value. It seems the housing with lights will run around 20K +/- so its a big decision on which way to go.

I was not aware that the Gates housings could use the Nikonos wet lens system. Is the Nikonos system the best way to go Vs a cine zoom through a dome port?

Hoping to get some opinions on this. If you were starting over, which way would you go? Of course PM's are welcome if you would rather not post an opinion on the open forum as I have seen some real "passion" in this thread over the years.

Thanks
 
M_Young said:
Been reading this thread for the longest time but never posted in it.

So my first post here.

I am considering buying into the RED system for underwater footage. Wondering how shooting a "land lens" through a dome stacks up to shooting through a Nikonos "wet" lens?

I have no horse in this race yet. I dont have a RED, any underwater housing or a Nikonos - so no bias on my part.

I am wondering if the Nikonos is the way to go Vs a housed land lens. How would a RED stack up underwater Vs something like an F23 2/3 sensor using digiprimes/digizooms ?

Apart from size, is there any reason to insist on a RED system vs something like an F65?

Just trying to find the right system to focus on and can think of no better place to get advice on this BEFORE i buy anything.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Any dome port in water from any manufacturer will degrade image quality - but how much depends upon the lens, format, subject distance, dome size, dome placement, and more. There are lots of good options that provide acceptable results for many at very wide angles of coverage even dealing with demanding 8K resolution, and it only gets easier as you narrow the field of view, or use a smaller capture format.

My issue with Nikonos RS lenses that are commonly used for RED is simply utility (I have them, and I can use them on my underwater housing). 13mm is a) not that much better than a lot of other ef mount fisheyes I own and b) not quite wide enough when I want a full 180 deg of coverage and c) has more barrel distortion than I'd use when I wanted a lens without barrel distortion. It is very sharp, and very contrasty, but is it appropriate for what you are shooting?

Nikonos RS 20-35 isn't a 20mm lens, that is Nikon's naming convention insulting the intelligence of the user base, and even if it were a 20mm lens I rarely find situations where that is wide enough for what I do on the formats I use.

Nikonos RS lenses are very good, very sharp lenses that provide inappropriate coverage angles for me. If I shot a true S35 the 13mm would be come more usable, and the 20-35 even less. Everyone's needs are different though.
 
M,

Good choice on the camera, at the moment Dragon 6K brains can be had for around 12K, I even saw one sell recently for 8.5. Not really sure why people aren't snapping them up at these prices, I expect once folks realize how capable the camera is, and what it costs to have similar in DSMC2, who knows.

If you insist on joining the DSMC2 stampede though, Apple is selling a Raven package at a very attractive price, apparently flying off the shelves.
 
Tom, Ryan,

Thanks for the responses.

I was trying to avoid going back and reading hundreds of posts, hence asking at the end of this epic (no pun intended) thread about the Nikonos.

Well, i man'd up, spent all night and went back some few hundred posts and got up to speed. Lots of info back in those posts in this thread on the Nikonos.

One area of concern is how strong the mount is. That is definitely an area for concern. Things have a habit of happening out there (my motto "Anything can happen and often does") and to drown a 12-15K'ish camera.......

Next issue is how wide the FOV is. That is a loss for sure. I had an email exchange with Pawel about this ....I wanted to use Nikonos lenses with an F65. He says "physically impossible". He recommends RED Dragon or better. Very strongly. I stopped reading this thread a few years ago when the magenta cast issue was rearing its ugly head. I lost interest at that point and shelved underwater shooting for the immediate future. Well time has past and I came looking again. Seems the magenta cast issue is solved.

Then the next box to tick - lens. Through a dome or Nikonos. After the deep dive I did last night through this thread.......more confused than ever on which way to pursue.

But thanks for the info, much appreciated.
 
Hi M Young,

Thought I could offer you some user experience.
I have a couple of setups I circulate through depending on job requirements and budget.

I have a DeepX setup by Pawel and I love it. Its about as small and lightweight and with the Nikonos lenses, the image quality is amazing. I was messing around after a recent shoot in an olympic pool shooting some of the tiles in the pool and composed a shot, zoomed in for critical focus and fired off a few seconds.
Reviewing later on the DIT computer I was blown away by the straight lines of the tiles and how I could see pin sharp details on the corners without any strange fall off etc. Then I saw we were viewing at 1/8th resolution and when we went full res and let the 6k file load, it was even better (obviously) and that was still only on an HD 17in monitor.
The downside of the Nikonos system, or atleast how I have it setup is the fact the 15mm cant focus above the water. I have often had to explain this compromise when a director wants me to follow the action from above the surface, down. Sorry but topside will be soft. Sure there are some lenses in my kit that work great on the surface such as the 20mm, 28mm and 35mm but not the 15mm. My thing is, if its purely underwater shots, and they are happy with Red, ill do my Nikonos system everytime. I have taken that rig down to 40m in an underwater cave with the clearest water you can imagine and besides some bubbles around my talents face etc, its so clear and crisp it looked like it was shot in a studio against blacks with a wire rig.

I also have a shallow water/surf style housing which ill shoot conventional cine or stills lenses with my Dragon and motion mount and thats cool. You seriously can see the difference once you take the shot underwater, especially with a flat port. I have a custom little dome for a Tokina but its not a dome like we know it, and actually the front dome element almost touches and follows the curve of the front element of the lens. Havent used it for years but from memory it was awesome.

I have a Nauticam Alexa Mini housing as well which I use. This housing is a serious machine and great for many reasons. I have flexibility to shoot with almost any prime lens you can think of as well as plenty of short zooms and their dome, when setup correctly with your chosen lens, gives a very lovely image. As Ryan suggested, most domes will give some degradation but when you work out what works and try and stay within those tolerances, its more than acceptable and to be honest, unless you had a side by side large 4k screen, most punters would not see the difference between a good well exposed cine lens and the Nikonos, unless you really pixel peek.
Shooting topside with the larger style housings can be trickier but atleast you can have something like a 15-40 zoom and be covered topside and underwater.

Now knowing your budget issues, some options are easier to stomach than others but when shooting in the water with these tools there really isnt the perfect do all solution and those compromises are part of the deal.
 
M_Young said:
Tom, Ryan,

Thanks for the responses.

I was trying to avoid going back and reading hundreds of posts, hence asking at the end of this epic (no pun intended) thread about the Nikonos.

Well, i man'd up, spent all night and went back some few hundred posts and got up to speed. Lots of info back in those posts in this thread on the Nikonos.

One area of concern is how strong the mount is. That is definitely an area for concern. Things have a habit of happening out there (my motto "Anything can happen and often does") and to drown a 12-15K'ish camera.......

Next issue is how wide the FOV is. That is a loss for sure. I had an email exchange with Pawel about this ....I wanted to use Nikonos lenses with an F65. He says "physically impossible". He recommends RED Dragon or better. Very strongly. I stopped reading this thread a few years ago when the magenta cast issue was rearing its ugly head. I lost interest at that point and shelved underwater shooting for the immediate future. Well time has past and I came looking again. Seems the magenta cast issue is solved.

Then the next box to tick - lens. Through a dome or Nikonos. After the deep dive I did last night through this thread.......more confused than ever on which way to pursue.

But thanks for the info, much appreciated.
Click to expand...

Nikonos V 15mm on F65 is something like 65deg diagonal, which most wouldn't find useful. RS 13 would be more useful.

The answer is that there isn't really an answer - just a best tool for a given job. Identify the job, then borrow/rent/buy the tool.

Keeping cameras dry is easy with a bit of care in prep. If you can insure your gear where you live and work it would prudent.
 
Lee Kelly said:
Hey boys and girls,

Wondering if any of you have any info about Nautilus housings??? I cant seem to find them on Google but have been asked about these via a client who wants to shoot with one, with tethered fool control? Hoping someone here has some info.
Click to expand...

Hi Lee,

Find Kaku Ito here or on Facebook - I believe he owns and operates a Nautilus RED housing, and had done a lot of work with foolcontrol tethering. The company has been around forever in Japan, and is a reputable one.
 
Lee,

Re your surf housing requirement, I had some hands-on time with Pawel's Deep X at AbelCine in Los Angeles a couple of years ago, very compact, robust and lightweight, are you not able to use that?

Btw, couple of people here, myself included, would be very interested to see some Nikonos RS 13/Red sample footy, any chance o' that mate? Ryan?

Beers on me.

Cheers
 
Hi Tom,

I do use the DeepX often when needing underwater surfing shots in small clean smooth conditions. If you have never used this kind of Nikonos system before it can be a bit scary the first time as its so different to what we are used to with a port based system. The lens, just bayonets onto the front of the housing with a simple o-ring protecting your camera. I guess its the same as a port system in that regard but when you see it in person you will know what I mean. The sensor is RIGHT there!!! The lens even wiggles within its mount too which is trippy.
At depth and pressure the thing locks in but in shallow surf style I tend to be extra careful to protect the lens from impact from whitewash. I really only use it in small waves which is best for underwater wave shots anyway.

I dont have a 13mm as the RS versions dont work with DeepX (as far as I know???) but i do have a sea and sea 12mm fisheye which is really nice and hard to find and flares really nicely. The 15mm is the champion of the kit though.

If I had some time and the knowhow, to post R3D frames I could give you a look but im swamped at the moment.

Ryan, I wonder if Kaku is the guy I have been talking about? My next job is in Japan and production want to use Nikonos but have an option of Nautilus locally but theyre not sure if they prefer the port system/quality or nikonos quality. The Japanese guys sent through their kit and it looks great and I told the producer they would get great results but theyre still keen to get me over there with the nikonos. Dont want to upset anyone over there and have awkward vibes.
 
Hi Lee,
I have an Epic in a SPL 'surf' aluminium housing and I live in Noosa and use it to shoot ocean sports.
It weighs 11k with a 290wh battery.
If I can be of any help, please phone me on 0457 448 488
Cheers,
Greg
 
Hi Lee Kelly,

Great amount of info there. Thanks!

To be honest I really wanted to do the F65 thing, but there is no use swimming against the tide - so i'll be scouting the used Epic Dragon threads.

All my shooting will be local to me - I will never be traveling with my rig when i get it. So from that point of view, a large heavy housing is of little concern to me. However again and again I am advised to keep it as small and light as possible. Who am I not to listen to that advice? So a RED it is, it seems.

Have I understood it correctly that the RED EPIC is altered at the mount to suit the Nikonos and this means the camera cant be used for other types of shooting without changing out the modification?

Thanks again for the info - super stuff.
 
Lee Kelly said:
to be honest, unless you had a side by side large 4k screen, most punters would not see the difference between a good well exposed cine lens and the Nikonos, unless you really pixel peek.

Now knowing your budget issues, some options are easier to stomach than others but when shooting in the water with these tools there really isnt the perfect do all solution and those compromises are part of the deal.
Click to expand...

So a good cine lens well setup and tuned is not THAT much different to a Nikonos ?

I know this is the RED forum, but honestly, this is the gathering place of the hardest core, hardcore underwater shooters anywhere on the net. So if I am allowed to digress for a minute I would love the opinion of you uber experienced shooters here...... I am considering a Sony F23 2/3" with digizooms to get started - simply because it will be so much more forgiving because of the smaller sensor. The F23 is quite an amazing machine in its own right. Mitch Gross says it is the best 3 chip camera ever made. Plus the digizooms are reasonably priced. The only downsides I can see are its not RAW and size.

But then again the price of used Epic Dragons is coming down all the time. So its easy to go that way too - lot harder to get good on, but thats only bubble time before one gets at least a little reasonable at shooting one. thoughts?

Ultimately I will end up with a Dragon Epic with Nikonos i think, but the F23 with a digizoom could be interesting as well.
 
M_Young said:
Hi Lee Kelly,

Great amount of info there. Thanks!

To be honest I really wanted to do the F65 thing, but there is no use swimming against the tide - so i'll be scouting the used Epic Dragon threads.

All my shooting will be local to me - I will never be traveling with my rig when i get it. So from that point of view, a large heavy housing is of little concern to me. However again and again I am advised to keep it as small and light as possible. Who am I not to listen to that advice? So a RED it is, it seems.

Have I understood it correctly that the RED EPIC is altered at the mount to suit the Nikonos and this means the camera cant be used for other types of shooting without changing out the modification?

Thanks again for the info - super stuff.
Click to expand...

I second that advice to go as smaller and lighter as possible. When I was just doing underwater photography, I always choose the most compact and ergonomic housings. Now with uw video, I have chosen Nauticam LT housing for the same reason (and not only for that). There are always situations (or locations) when size and weight is a problem (not to mention air travel), so going with a more ergonomic housing is a big plus for me.
 
The Beauty of Nikonos

The Beauty of Nikonos

Hi M_Young,
The beauty of Pawel Achtel’s design of the DeepX wasn’t just it’s precision engineering but it’s simplicity. Think of it as a lens mount that wraps around the camera which uses specially designed UW stills lenses for ease of use and resolution. The Nik 15mm is a legend of a lens, it’s small, ridiculously cheap and looks amazing. But there is also the 20mm, 28mm, 35mm and 80mm and as such this keeps the housing versatile, extremely compact and simple to use. Very important when bouncing in and out of the water.
Why would you use an old tech F23 in a huge housing with all the complexity of the LCS when you can make it so simple?
Bang for buck the dragon is amazing!
I can pass the deep X out of the water with one hand, change a lens on the side of a pool, produce 6K images of the highest production value and shoot high speed!
Oh and there is also a dome port system, the Aquatica, that Nikon designed specifically or the Nikonos that will hold Nikon mount lenses like the 16mm fisheye which will do your half in half out shots perfectly if the Nik 28mm isn’t wide enough.
If only I knew how to put the guts of the A7SII or the GH5 into an old NikonosV body, with that 15mm lens I could rule the world… Pawel???
https://www.philipbarthropp.com/photo?lightbox=image1g9j
https://www.philipbarthropp.com/photo?lightbox=image1wjo
 
Very interesting this discussion about the pros and cons of Nikonos vs still vs cinema lenses, while shooting underwater.

Two scenarios and three questions:

1 - Lets imagine that you have a 15 mm or a 13 mm Nikonos lens in your housing, but the DOP prefers to use a PL cinema lens. What can you say to convince him to change his mind and accept to work with a Nikonos lens?

2 - Now, lets say you have a still lens and dome port mounted in your housing and the DOP prefer to use a PL cinema lens. What can you say to convince him to change his mind and accept to work with a still lens underwater?

3 - What kind of lens use the big names of the underwater realm, like, to name just one, Howard Hall, that supposedly don't have any budget restrictions and can choose the lens that gives the best results underwater?

PS - See a detailed insight test and conversion of the Nikonos RS 13mm here: http://wetpixel.com/articles/insight-the-nikonos-rs-13mm-conversion
 
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