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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The future of Redray?

Marc Wielage said:
That's my theory as well. The Odemax digital distribution system vanished, too -- no word since early 2014.

One thing I would love to see Red do would be to market a reasonable-sized 4K display -- say, a 21" model for field production and a 40" model for mastering. But I don't think this is an easy business to get into.


A digital camera has nothing to do with a projector, and a projector has nothing to do with a camera. They're completely different, like a microphone and a speaker. They're related, but you can't use the guts of one for the other.
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That's limited thinking. Thank goodness RED engineers aren't confined to a box. '-)

Modularity + ASIC + firmware.
 
With RED's open-armed approach to a 3rd party ecosystem now, perhaps not all hope is lost for something to still come of this ... I'd like to see it named DeathRay instead of Red Ray, though, to make airport check-ins with the Weapon even more fun!
 
He, he, saw an episode of Anger management a few nights ago where he meets the guy that ruined his career, and he is an airport security guard with a grudge stopping and Charlie mentions all the things his not, he is not a terrorist, bomber etc, and pleads withe gaurd's boss that wants to give him an cavity inspection, and they tell him they are three things on the watch list, so he says "this is unamerican" and they tell him that the fourth word on the watch list before trying to hsll him away. :)

Now Marc, I do believe they use common asci circuitry between the cameras and Redray design. I think they are using this coprocessing technology from years ago I told Jim about, as it was a top technology at the time before GP GPU processing took off. It is reprogrammable for different purposes. Somebody mentioned Red ray innyjr camera specs? Do any of these cameras record to redray codec?
 
Marc Wielage said:
A digital camera has nothing to do with a projector, and a projector has nothing to do with a camera. They're completely different, like a microphone and a speaker. They're related, but you can't use the guts of one for the other.
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Bad example to use in this analogy. Speakers and microphones are actually remarkably similar in fundamentals, to such a degree that in a pinch you can use a pair of headphones as a microphone. This is an old DJ trick for when you have to make a PA announcement. Just plug the headphones into the mic input and you're set. Also, in the early days of camera designs, the camera itself functioned as a camera, a processing lab, and a proyector.
 
If the Redray Player is truly gone (at least in it's current state, until they come out with something new) does anyone have any solutions as to how to play/show 4K content that we've shot? Are there other set top boxes or other ways you guys are showing off your RED footage?
 
There are plenty of sub $100 Android boxes that will play 4k, probably even some window 10 ones, in Asia. Aliexpress has them, or tiny deals. But still waiting o. HDMI 2 support , which there might be a few now. However, the Nvidia sheild TV is probably the best, HDMI 2, Android 6 update with the open gl replacement graphic standard, and a power gpu. But a powetful.pc or mac is better, for the pro codecs, like cinform.
 
Honestly, I never saw much of a point for the REDRAY or the RED Projector. Really, guys, how many of you can honestly say that you have room for a RED Projector either in your homes or your production/rental facility? The answer, not many. Movie theatres might have been able to use something like the REDRAY and the RED Projector at one time but that game has changed with direct streaming becoming a bigger and bigger possibility if it isn't already there. So who would these products be for? A set number of post houses in the world? Home users and businesses for events? It's hard to say because the price point is key for whatever market they were going into. Also, other companies have caught up with the 4K game and computers and media boxes have gotten WAY faster too so now displaying and playing back 4K on the fly isn't as tough as it once was. So yeah, you've got pro inputs and playback features but with all of that becoming seamless or not as impossible with a laptop connected to a pro Thunderbolt or USB3 device, then where does it fit in? Maybe that's the practical question RED had to ask or, perhaps, RED is indeed jumping over the competition and doubling up to 8K+ and that's just taking some time to figure out. Until we hear something official, who knows?
 
It was under nourished, you are dropping a 4k projector into a market were events and advertising need 16k+, a real big market for a dominate player. But we have to stop limiting Red to the small cinema market. Sure as an unopposed dominant leader the projector could have great cinema sales (now there was s too much 4k competition) but you have to be ahead to ensure market penertration.

Now, reasons. This is difficult, as we get into speculation. One is the change in scanning laser projection safe levels to 25mw. I had been advocating over in that industry that previous levels had been too low, as Icame up with around 100 designs for laser projector mechanisms, so I was particularly concerned. I latly developed an ultimate design before I retired from developing them. I have a 100% way to meet this new requirement in a way that suites Red's objectives, with a bright screen.

However, the 25mw was enough to kill a scanned device dead for a large screen.

The odemax etc. That is big deals to get reasonable content where players might not 'want' you in.the market 'at all'. Of course it should have been done differently, giving priority to Red indie productions, that are not tied up like studio stuff, while they sort everything else out. But that is not really a market, so an online service using redrat could be done. After all, redray us tied to the projectors, where professionals in various industries don't need it at all (cad, photography, advertising etc).

Now, you can easily rig up a projector in many sizable rooms to use, say as a work screen on the wall above the desk. The first nly thing is that we will likely get high contrast 65 inch greater than 2020 color gamulr screens within a few years.

So there is still dwindling opportunity, either cheaper consumer (noway those competing rohljectirs should cost so much) non cinema industries, and still some life in cinema and post, but dwindling.
 
As display screens get larger every year or so and thinner and easier to manage, not to mention cheaper, the market for projectors declines. Wayne, I disagree about there being too much competition at 4K... There is NO competition and Sony has the lower 2/3 of the market completely dominated for 4K projection. No one else is even attempting to compete. There have been some luke-warm announcements from the DLP crowd and other players regarding UHD / 4K projectors, but nothing. JVC has some that accept 4K input and offer green element pixel shift interpolation, but they're still just 1080p projection.

There is indeed a market for higher than 4K when it comes to projection, but there isn't any content to drive it, nor systems to do so. We'll be stitching multiple 4K systems together for a while longer. 8K is looming on the horizon... Just as 4K was back in late '07, early '08 -- first 4K cameras just getting delivered and all that, no 4K displays out there. Well, one or two, for the same price as a nice car.

Projection will eventually be replaced by large OLED (or similar) screens that we can buy in our desired size and unroll, snap into a frame and hang, just like we do now with the passive projection screen. Large venues and specialty presentation situations are where big screen projection will persist for a while. It's days are numbered, just like mechanical hard drives and Bayer pattern CFA sensors.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
As display screens get larger every year or so and thinner and easier to manage, not to mention cheaper, the market for projectors declines. Wayne, I disagree about there being too much competition at 4K... There is NO competition and Sony has the lower 2/3 of the market completely dominated for 4K projection. No one else is even attempting to compete. There have been some luke-warm announcements from the DLP crowd and other players regarding UHD / 4K projectors, but nothing. JVC has some that accept 4K input and offer green element pixel shift interpolation, but they're still just 1080p projection.

There is indeed a market for higher than 4K when it comes to projection, but there isn't any content to drive it, nor systems to do so. We'll be stitching multiple 4K systems together for a while longer. 8K is looming on the horizon... Just as 4K was back in late '07, early '08 -- first 4K cameras just getting delivered and all that, no 4K displays out there. Well, one or two, for the same price as a nice car.

Projection will eventually be replaced by large OLED (or similar) screens that we can buy in our desired size and unroll, snap into a frame and hang, just like we do now with the passive projection screen. Large venues and specialty presentation situations are where big screen projection will persist for a while. It's days are numbered, just like mechanical hard drives and Bayer pattern CFA sensors.
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Hi Jeff, sorry for the delay, big flu and piosoning.

Sorry if I was not clear Jeff. Earlier, before people dropped their prices (and with all the cheap 4k TV competition) it was a good opportunity to be a market leader on price for quality. We have a few options and JVC has cheapo options (not that cheap, but pixel shifting is not the same for projectors) that you mentioned. Now the 4k buzz is to be replaced by the 8k buzz. We are talking 10x+ sales difference in the consumer sector.

DLP, is .... hopeless. I've tried to contact them at least twice about their low end available to anybody for development kits and heard absolutely nothing back. At least with ARM you will get an employee that doesn't really know what parts are in the market to direct you towards (Google is like they work for ARM, because that is what you have to do when their "lists" of parts fails you). The last time I checked they did not know of any javascript or higher embedded OS engines for their ultra low powered cores, and recommended I only go to kuch higher power parts, only to officially release higher functioning replacement versions of the ultra low power parts within two months (or was that two weeks). No concept of what was needed to implem ent a JavaScript engine, or higher functioning embedded os, just an auto thought to direct to parts of a much higher spec. A broken disjoint eco system.

Anytime I come across that I tend to give up and avoid dealing with such companies, that can't even service a simple request. They are on top of a giant milking cow. They must be out of essential patents by now, so I imagine Chinese competition will come. Still thinking of going back and getting on of those kits lately though.

8k, 16k, 64k, presentaion projection does not need content as such, you make the content for the presentation. You stick together whatever custom solution you can, using the latest resolution support (does Nvidia have 8k yet), even custom on thunderbolt. When I was looking at doing a $500+ 16k touch surface table laser projector (very weak, special this that the other to make it acceptably bright etc), I looked into custom interface and processor array capable of doing it. That 16k chrap part is still out there, and that hololens type thing that MS announced afterwards, is the sort of thing I was also discussing in the background.

This whole bowing to the consumer market thing has really held the same industry back for many years, and completely stagnated, due to some ce companies pulling the strings on what the whole computer industry is doing as far as media and storage goes. It used to be that the PC industry used to rape consumers, forcing them to pay exorbitant prices on displays of lower resolution than consumer tech, and paying extra again to get that special hd/fullhd model. They either waste money trying to drum up luke warm products and fads, or do nothing, both market damaging.

The false hope of OLED, tell me about it, I've been waiting since the late 80's I think. I have a friend that wants a projector in his bar, and I was thinking today that I could suggest a OLED as the extra gamut of a better display wont matter much, but it is too expensive to have a bottle thrownnat it, and very small. Yes, we will likely get rollable large screens, but will they be durable enough, and rollables have a very low color gamut so far, going from bendable versions. Light emitting quatum dots though are much more interesting for now. So covering 100 inch to sides of buildings with walk by fine resolutions is more a projection thing for a number of years, plus nothing to wear out or break on the side of the building.

I think.like you Jeff, I wish it had all come a lot quicker and a lot easier, without the former Sony led standard participation (fullhd too early, 4k BD too late, hdmi 2 too late etc).
 
I agree Michael, when the price comes down even a roll on plastic might be more affordable. There is a problem with pannels and cabling it, getting a usable signal and charge to go across a big area and reliability of a roll on to weather and sun. It can be done. A projector cheaply does this. We get cinned that a projector must be more expensive then a more costly and costly to make display.

I've just been eyeing 500 inch long touch walls last week. Incredible stuff, I could have a bunch of kids playing a game on something like that against each other for advertising. Brings a whole new meaning to arena sports.

I should have a look at the wiring behind my local casino's stadium led panel screen, big thing in the country when put in. I am interested in seeing a THX or Dolby Digital screen in the new Casino. If only the projector had been on time I could have diverted some into.the casino's.
 
Being someone who is always trying to connect the dots, I'm wondering if .RED doesn't somehow have a connection with what Jim is involved in. There was simply no good reason to allow such an efficient codec to be marginalized, so I'm wondering if they (RED Jim) decided it has more potential as a virtual/augmented reality component?

If true, this may signify that a laser projector in the traditional sense is no longer a RED priority.
 
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Itbwas marginalized for no good reason I think. When they crowed they were going to do this service and in theatre. I said it wasn't going to be so likely. As you have to license copyrighted content under arduous terms that competitors might not like you getting a better deal, if at all, and not to effect their competition. The content maybe exclusive. Apple had a large problem doing it's own licensing. Now all these companies have their hands in the pie, they dont want real competition to come and wipe down profits. So, I knew it was going to harder to achieve adequately. If you there is a blockage, it is a good target for anti trust, so far the looses must be billions, tens of millions long term.

It was wrong and wrong headed. It should have been released as a free viewer refined for PC hardware, with a sponsor/advertiser channel. The content creation and serving are charged for. Manufacturers are eventually charged to include it on their products. The user used the normal internet to access Red's and partner film bases, including indie productions by people here. Implementation time, probably, several years ago, present profit tens of millions maybe. At the moment, given the history, Netflix, Google etc, are ones to license to. But, if they don't play ball, and open market of hundreds of small firms in order to compete with Netflix etc, effectively forcing them into licensing it.

The other side of the equation, most laser displays are scanning systems, there was research and a law change to drastically bring the power level down due to increased issue when used in a scanning system. I had identified this as a pontential issue year's before and and brought it up in the industry. Anyway, I think their system is scanning, it disappeared quickly afterwards. I have a easier solution for that but nobody is interested, and that is hundreds of millions of net profit down the drain already.

Now, the codec for VR. I design new codec systems, and I can definitely say that there are a type of codec that could help in vr.

Just watching a stream redray will help, using it in a 3D structure is possible, a point cloud I don't know. Interactively, my mind has closed down since I started writing, so have forgotten the answer.

We will see what they actually are planning.
 
As for redray, did they buy into a local laser display hardware project? There were severe restrictions applied to certain types of laser display technique at the time, I know how to resolve. I had been concerned about this since looking into doing a scanning laser projector system early last decade. I realized all the safety figures were fud for this type of system. Anybody that considers how laser surgery tools work, and previous theories in science, realise that materials respond to certain frequencies in resonance and pulsing can increase damage at lower power than individual delivery. Our eye color structures are tuned to the frequencies being delivered. I saw that the figures would be a lot lower and the research came in that they were. Fortunately I figured some good solutions to raise the maximum output to normal levels
 
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Hold it, that is virtually 100% what I would write, because that is everything I dud too, and I think I did write something like that Are you quoting me Igor?

Now, to answer. No they did not buy into it, expecting them to make contact is unlikely. I'll tell you what, there are companies that would give up all the money and go broke rather than contact. Guess what, you let them go broke. Appears this project is shut down. But the ability to overcome the limitations us thete, waiting to help out.
 
OK, that is from a post of mine in this thread. Rather tied, didn't pickup the reference to a local laser project over their rather than here. Sorry. The point of your post Igor?
 
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