The future of Redray?

[Wayne Morellini]

What has happened to Redray (and the projector)?

Something coming up is h266 and Redray would be excellent addition to the patent license pool. They are close to LA aren't they.

I have also mentioned that companies like Google and Netflix maybe very interested based on bandwidth data saving and performance quality.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

I've always wondered if red officially killed this, did they ever say anthing or just stop making them?

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Don't know, but you don't just kill patent IP like this, you license it or if it's not yours the contract will dictate options available.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

I imagine something is being planned in the background or it has moved on.

 

[Elsie N]

While trying to explore all reasons for going dark in re: the .RED codec, I've wondered if there may not have been an overlap of someone else's patent that may have triggered a cease and desist order.

If they are still thinking along the lines of a Laser projector/.RED combo but are waiting for laser technology to catch up, this may bode well for that to still happen.

 

[Phil Holland]

I have also mentioned that companies like Google and Netflix maybe very interested based on bandwidth data saving and performance quality.

You're right Wayne. Which is why Amazon, Cisco, Google, Intel, Microsoft, Mozilla and Netflix formed the Alliance for Open Media last year. More or less to move on from the rather restrictive and costly realities of H.265.

Expect to see something sprout out of it this year. Especially now that the UHD Premium standard has been officially announced. But the new codec should actually surpass some of those specifications as well.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

It would be delicious if the HEVC/H.265 patent trolls get bypassed...

Cheers - #19

 

[Antony Newman]

I speculate that for wide adoption of the .RED format - streaming UHD playback in set-top boxes would be required.
This would require that high end Mali / Imagination Technologies / Qualcomm chips perform the same sort of number crunching that RED put into the their (ASIC/FGPA) prototype projectors.


I guess it is unlikely that even 14nm variants of the above would be sufficient for real time playback. In which case, RED would need to work with the console giants looking to differentiate their own streaming services that could use the much higher specced console GPU. Maybe the question should be - what sort of tank of a GPU would be required to decompress .RED in real time?


If RED’s IP was fully parcelled up - could the h265 costs be a just cause for the consortiums to adopt it? Perhaps they could do a Meridian .. and get it included as an optional format within the up-and-coming h266 specs (as was suggested earlier).


If the next Mac Pro had an effective way to use the format (e.g. a Metal / OpenCL 2.0 optimised form) and a cross-licence … perhaps this would format would find its way into FCP-X. How many people would take the option to run a Util to permanently (destructively) compress old .R3D’s into .RED?


In terms of a UHD Laser projectors : I guess we are now Only a year away before REAL 4K DLP chips are available from Epson (or another budget company). I guess only Red would know if there it would be viable to introduce a projector in what must be a very competitive market.

Having said all of the above … if RED does push Redray (and the PJ!) forward - I would consume my doubts and signup to whatever is created!


AJ

 

[Wayne Morellini]

The Nvidia arm chips are currently the leaders for set top box chips and I would not be surprised if they outstrip a rocket, definitely doller for doller.

 

[Bob Gundu]

I think they hit the wall on the projector and redray. There is no mention of those products on the website so I wouldn't expect them to be reality anytime soon. Or ever.

 

[Elsie N]

I think they hit the wall on the projector and redray. There is no mention of those products on the website so I wouldn't expect them to be reality anytime soon. Or ever.

Probably right. I just wish they would confirm or deny if that's the case.

If it is true that it is dead, then I can delete all reference to .RED and or the Red Laser Projector from my consciousness. '-)

 

[L. Langer]

I'm 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% certain that RED has terminated all R&D related to the laser projector. It's not a sound investment for them to pour money into at this point as every competitor has moved to introduce laser projectors into cinemas and high-end homes and TV's will always be the dominant display device in the home market. Remember why RED left the lens game? It was the exact same scenario and they would have lost money if they kept their name in it, because they simply couldn't compete. I can also say the same about REDRay coming to market. Even though that codec was a mind blower, the execution and deployment were hampered by factors outside of RED's control and they would gain nothing by rolling it out now given the dominance of HEVC in future solutions. More to the point, the tech behind REDRay would have to be refined to the point where it can be licensed to be included in any hardware video decoder/encoder ASIC on the market and I doubt any of those has the horsepower to deal with REDRay's computational requirements given the hefty weight and size of the REDRay hardware. I can only see RED continuing some R&D for optimizing REDRay for possible use with 8K sources in the professional realm.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

The hardware size was probably just how they did it and with some modification it probably would run on cheap TV hardware today (such as JP 2k was extremely hardware intensive but cineform was extremely lite, both wavelet and the lighter was the better performer I think. Came down to a modification in how they did the maths, I came across a similar issue with his I did my graphics technology a few decades ago. As you can't talk to Red about these things, and they won't reveal what it is, you can not help). But the licensing of the recipient, or just plain sale would be very profitable. Netflix has announced they are customising the media deliverables to the user by speed, resolution and content type to save data costs, so Redray would be a major gain for a number of big players, effectively giving maybe double quality and half data rate and the only 8k delivery solution which is aboon for marketing reasons if not for visual quality resons while tjebrwal 4k/2k work is helped. A bidding war between them would push the price up. For Netflix, an owned version lets them continue to dominate in quality out to h267 or more. For Google they and their partners just save money straight up. As much as people here don't like it, Jpeg LA is the other major buyer to get redray codec technology inserted into h266 quick. It is about not letting this good opportunity for and getting it out there. A major disservice has been done here, even if only suitable on a small resolution, that would have been good for YouTube and Skype calls. Once in the market regularly specific hardware support could have come latter. O think there was talk on internet use originally and that was the time to take advantage of it. I imagine redray hardware is also based on a more general mathematic solution processing hardware, meaning a more specific processing hardware would maybe beat it by 10 times in processing section size. A CUDA version on the Nvidia TX1 would be interesting because these things are way powerful per watt. The only people to talk to near Red probably are my friends at Ambarella, they can really figure out the hardware and crunch it down for size and cost, being industry leaders in that for over a decade. Partnering with Nvidia is another option, they already do an incredibly powerful $149 TV box solution. Outside that things get a bit risky or thin. You could talk to Imagination technologies or a local mobile phone chip maker, or Microsoft and Sony for console inclusion (who partner with AMD) but it is not the same. Why should them, or Apple, bother with Redray, because it puts them way in the lead in offering streaming services for a while. The refinement of this sort of hardware size and cost is a specialized endeavour that should be attempted by specialized team or high end companies. Seriously, I would not be surprised if the solution could be refined down a hundred fold that is the sort of thing that can happen in the best hands. As it is, I would not be surprised if Nvidia ARM hardware could not handle the decoding if refined (the encoding section tends to be the more processing intensive).

However, I imagine there are licensing issues that are the reasons, and a smaller plug in target, or licensing to others, would have helped.

As for redray, did they buy into a local laser display hardware project? There were severe restrictions applied to certain types of laser display technique at the time, I know how to resolve. I had been concerned about this since looking into doing a scanning laser projector system early last decade. I realized all the safety figures were fud for this type of system. Anybody that considers how laser surgery tools work, and previous theories in science, realise that materials respond to certain frequencies in resonance and pulsing can increase damage at lower power than individual delivery. Our eye color structures are tuned to the frequencies being delivered. I saw that the figures would be a lot lower and the research came in that they were. Fortunately I figured some good solutions to raise the maximum output to normal levels

As with the codec, the projector does not need to die, you merely license the technology to someone else, or partner with somebody and they can even take it through. I imagine content licensing was probably an issue for the cinema side and that is in others hands. But you still have home, presentation, business, advertising and professional markets, even cinema with a regular decoding unit (and ability to add a redray section as enough cinemas come online). The future us not finished, just different.

Sorry have not been around much lately, been rather sick.

 

[Ian Laurie]

Probably right. I just wish they would confirm or deny if that's the case.

If it is true that it is dead, then I can delete all reference to .RED and or the Red Laser Projector from my consciousness. '-)

for what its worth, i've noticed they mention the codec still in their specs for red raven. the fact they still mention it is a good thing in my books.

 

[Elsie N]

for what its worth, i've noticed they mention the codec still in their specs for red raven. the fact they still mention it is a good thing in my books.

Hadn't noticed that... good to hear.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The codec is very promising. The RedRay player itself left a lot to be desired. It wasn't priced well, even for a professional device. Or it should have also had the ability to play DCP's at that price point. Needed better connectivity options and it struggled with display at A/V component compatibility.

 

[ignition]

I'm 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% certain that RED has terminated all R&D related to the laser projector.

I'm glad you left a small margin of error and uncertainty there

Personally prefer RED focus on core camera systems and not divest capital/R&D effort into projectors, lenses, etc. Disruptive and unexpected surprises like Raven and Scarlet-W happen when you can focus on your core product line..

 

[Elsie N]

I'm glad you left a small margin of error and uncertainty there

Personally prefer RED focus on core camera systems and not divest capital/R&D effort into projectors, lenses, etc. Disruptive and unexpected surprises like Raven and Scarlet-W happen when you can focus on your core product line..

They've pretty much got the camera thing nailed down IMO. What I would like to see them working on is a combination camera/projector module. These cameras are super computers... it seems a waste of resources to not adapt all that computing power to exhibition, as well as acquisition.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

I'm glad you left a small margin of error and uncertainty there

Personally prefer RED focus on core camera systems and not divest capital/R&D effort into projectors, lenses, etc. Disruptive and unexpected surprises like Raven and Scarlet-W happen when you can focus on your core product line..

Those cameras were coming anyway. On the cinema side, and the home side, what redray was promising was really good for filmmakers. But if it had also included the ability to play conventional cinema images in cinema, as L was getting at, that would be good as cinemas could play it safe with a bet both ways. But, the hardware/license to decide normal cinema streams is rather expensive, and the licensing terms probably unfavorable, if, as a competitor, you could get a license at all.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I think they hit the wall on the projector and redray. There is no mention of those products on the website so I wouldn't expect them to be reality anytime soon. Or ever.

That's my theory as well. The Odemax digital distribution system vanished, too -- no word since early 2014.

One thing I would love to see Red do would be to market a reasonable-sized 4K display -- say, a 21" model for field production and a 40" model for mastering. But I don't think this is an easy business to get into.

They've pretty much got the camera thing nailed down IMO. What I would like to see them working on is a combination camera/projector module. These cameras are super computers... it seems a waste of resources to not adapt all that computing power to exhibition, as well as acquisition.

A digital camera has nothing to do with a projector, and a projector has nothing to do with a camera. They're completely different, like a microphone and a speaker. They're related, but you can't use the guts of one for the other.