The FCP X Problem; University level

[Tom Greenberg]

Tom - There was an interesting article in the NY Times recently that noted the difficulty film school grads are having finding jobs. Here's the link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/movies/film-school-graduates-job-prospects-at-usc-nyu-ucla.html

The irony, I think, is that video is undeniably a growing industry, given the huge demand for video on the web, but when we define "professionals" narrowly, as only those working in film and television, we end up missing most of the job opportunities. The world is shifting in many fields but probably none more dramatically than ours. If the goal of your school is to get people into the "Hollywood" industry, not only do you have a tremendous challenge, you may be causing them to have unrealistic expectations and miss real opportunities. My point in this discussion is: if FCP-X ends up being the NLE "for the rest of us," meaning those of us who cut for the web, indies, corporate stuff, becuase it is efficient and flexible, then it just might be the best tool for what I'll call "the new professional." Just some thoughts.

I've seen the NY Times article, Terry, and I think that both it and you make some valid points. At Compass, we are very aware of the increasing reach of digital media and have worked hard to incorporate web marketing, social media, web-based indie film and similar areas into our curriculum. Although many of our alumni do go on to work successfully in "Hollywood", I wouldn't say that is the only thing we are training them for. We have a very unconventional and unique program. As a vocational college, with a very intense accelerated program (60 credit hour Associates degree in 12 months), we stress developing career and life skills to insure employability. As a matter of fact, a mandatory internship is part of our degree program (can't graduate until it is successfully completed), and many of our students end up employed by the organizations or facilities they intern at. And employability to us means film sets, production companies, post houses, rental companies, web marketing groups, advertising agencies, tv stations, documentary and indie film, reality tv, webisodes, commercials, corporate communications, marketing materials, exhibit and trade show displays, etc., etc. etc. I'm proud to say that our alumni work at some very A-list positions in many of those areas of "the business". The same basic skillset applies to all of those fields...of course there are differences in workflow, gear and deliverables...but the basic process is much the same.

One of the reasons I feel like Adobe has a great opportunity here is because of their other Pro apps...not specifically the strength of their editing program. Photoshop is probably used in every single department of every digital media company...whether for web design, marketing layouts, photography, print and graphic design, set and production design for film, still and motion graphic elements for film and video, and so on. Likewise AE & Flash have a firm hold on 2D animation, visual effects, and compositing for web as well as film and video. In the end, a NLE is just a tool...it may turn out that FCP X is a great tool, maybe not...but certainly I think it is too soon to tell. I just want to make sure that our students know how to get the work done well and on time, no matter what tool they end up choosing. And to accomplish that, I need them to learn a mature, reliable, industry-accepted tool...for me right now, that means Premiere Pro.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Chris, I think that in a year or two FCP X "may" be a "complete" solution that works for most pros...however that burden seems to be depending to a great degree on third-party developers to fill in the cracks that Apple has left. But we don't have the luxury of waiting to see if that happens. I have a fresh group of students coming in here in 6 weeks that will work their tails off for 1 year, graduate with an Associates degree, and head out into the industry to make a living...those students need to be equipped with the best possible skills to succeed, and I just don't think that FCP X represents that skillset at this point in time. I need to make the best decision that I can make right now...and live with the costs and consequences. Like any responsible educational organization, we re-evaluate our curriculum constantly, so if FCP Xs status changes drastically in the future, we will reconsider our position.

Do you track student progress after graduation? I'm curious to know how many actually get jobs beyond internships in either the feature film or episodic television industries - that actually need the kind of input/output/xml etc. etc. capabilities that FCPX lacks right now?

Seems to me that number would be extremely small since there simply aren't that many jobs at all, much less very many opening up every year. It is probably important to make your students aware that there are still parts of the industry that depend on tapes and lots of interchange between various departments and cover some of it to some small degree, but I doubt if it really warrants a lot of time since most will probably end up actually working in areas where that stuff isn't all that important. Basic editing, titling, color correction and audio capability will translate to almost any area, most of that other stuff won't. I doubt if even knowing how to create a DVD will be very important 3 or 4 years from now. As Mr. Jannard has pointed out here, a good hockey player doesn't think about where the puck is now - it's where it is going to be.

Interestingly enough, Randy Ubillos (did I spell that correctly?) was a part of the team that developed FCP originally and is also the architect of FCPX. I believe he saw that the approach to editing could evolve from what it was 12 or so years ago and felt he knew how to do that.

FCPX style editing may actually be where the puck is going to be.

 

[Tom Greenberg]

Do you track student progress after graduation? I'm curious to know how many actually get jobs beyond internships in either the feature film or episodic television industries - that actually need the kind of input/output/xml etc. etc. capabilities that FCPX lacks right now?

Seems to me that number would be extremely small since there simply aren't that many jobs at all, much less very many opening up every year. It is probably important to make your students aware that there are still parts of the industry that depend on tapes and lots of interchange between various departments and cover some of it to some small degree, but I doubt if it really warrants a lot of time since most will probably end up actually working in areas where that stuff isn't all that important. Basic editing, titling, color correction and audio capability will translate to almost any area, most of that other stuff won't. I doubt if even knowing how to create a DVD will be very important 3 or 4 years from now. As Mr. Jannard has pointed out here, a good hockey player doesn't think about where the puck is now - it's where it is going to be.

FCPX style editing may actually be where the puck is going to be.

We do track our graduates' job status and advancement. As a matter of fact, we maintain an on-going referral service for alumni of full and part-time industry jobs, as well as specific project-length gigs. We are a small, close-knit family and are heavily invested in our students' long-term success.

Rather than concentrate on the minutiae of specific jobs, our focus is on teaching problem-solving skills and how to analyze and design a workflow that will get the job done. As you know, every project demands its own workflow derived from it's parameters: type and length of program, acquisition formats used, the intended audience, deliverables, delivery format, deadline, who else you have to share data with, etc. etc. etc. We try to teach our students to ask the right questions, know how to apply the information they gather, and use that information and the skills we teach them to get to a favorable outcome.

There is no question that this industry is constantly changing. Learning how to learn, and apply what you learn, is more important than learning a specific tool that may or may not even exist when you need to solve that kind of problem. That being said, we as educators have a responsibility to give our students the best fundamental understanding we can, so they can adapt and respond to whatever problem confronts them in their careers.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Tom:

First of all, your response was well articulated and I think in the overall sense it is what's important.

But I am interested a bit in the specifics of how many of those Feature/episodic jobs there really are? It seems to me that most of the businesses that are likely to hire production/postproduction people are normal businesses that don't need much of those capabilities.

Oddly enough, if I was hiring for my business right now, I'd prefer someone that understood FCPX because I see it as being capable (with the other $49 programs) of the vast majority of our work, and more toward the future - and there are already tons of people that know Avid and FCP that can be hired if needed on a project basis or full time.

And I see most of the limitations being handled in the next six months to a year. (by the time your students graduate!).

Some current "pro" features may never be added but I suspect those will become less important as everything is recorded to solid state media. And eventually internet speeds will allow full collaboration as well.

 

[dillont]

This has been a fascinating discussion to be a part of. Thank you everyone for contributing to it.

Michael, I'm stuck with the same exact dilemma that Tom is stuck with - I'm not just making decisions for myself and the University I work for, but for all the students who's dreams and hopes are placed in the Industry. Oh, and I have to make a decision before August (Apple license program up for renewal in August). Do I renew and take a chance on an unknown future with FC X?

It is my job responsibility to make sure that students have access to the best tools possible with the budget the University gives me every year. I know that the majority of students who graduate from here will never work in Hollywood. But I can't make my decisions based on this. I make my decisions based on giving the best tools available to the students. FC X isn't one of them at the moment.

And since I (and Tom, and many others doing the same kind of work in education) have to plan and chart a course, I need to know where things are going to be and where they're heading. Apple has been unbelievably silent about their intentions with FC X, choosing, instead, to apparently dribble out small details to 3rd parties. No concrete word from the horse's mouth. Adobe has been very open about its direction. Same with Avid. I frankly felt mislead by Apple (as did many others) when they released FCP X (while discontinuing its predecessor app). And yeah, I'm aware of the new revealings from the London group last night, and from the FAQ on the site.

Maybe Apple is keeping its cards close to its chest. There seems to be hints of possibilities in the future, but hints aren't enough to make business decisions like this.

I'd be happy as a "dead-horse pie" if Apple were to come out strong and tell us directly (those in the industry and in education) what the road map is for FCP X, rather than relying on 3rd parties for word of mouth. As it is, Apple has made it VERY difficult for people like us to plan ahead.

Best regards,

Dillon

PS: I'm sorry about saying "dead-horse pie". A moment of spontaneous, and dumb creativity.

Tom:

First of all, your response was well articulated and I think in the overall sense it is what's important.

But I am interested a bit in the specifics of how many of those Feature/episodic jobs there really are? It seems to me that most of the businesses that are likely to hire production/postproduction people are normal businesses that don't need much of those capabilities.

Oddly enough, if I was hiring for my business right now, I'd prefer someone that understood FCPX because I see it as being capable (with the other $49 programs) of the vast majority of our work, and more toward the future - and there are already tons of people that know Avid and FCP that can be hired if needed on a project basis or full time.

And I see most of the limitations being handled in the next six months to a year. (by the time your students graduate!).

Some current "pro" features may never be added but I suspect those will become less important as everything is recorded to solid state media. And eventually internet speeds will allow full collaboration as well.

 

[Tom Greenberg]

Tom:
First of all, your response was well articulated and I think in the overall sense it is what's important.

But I am interested a bit in the specifics of how many of those Feature/episodic jobs there really are? It seems to me that most of the businesses that are likely to hire production/postproduction people are normal businesses that don't need much of those capabilities.

Michael, I don't have any hard numbers to share with you. We have a Career Services department to handle that side of things and I am an instructor. I know that this is not a huge industry, with unlimited opportunities, but I will say that we are a small school that enjoys a very high placement/job retention percentage for our grads.

This has been a fascinating discussion to be a part of. Thank you everyone for contributing to it.

And since I (and Tom, and many others doing the same kind of work in education) have to plan and chart a course, I need to know where things are going to be and where they're heading. Apple has been unbelievably silent about their intentions with FC X, choosing, instead, to apparently dribble out small details to 3rd parties. No concrete word from the horse's mouth. Adobe has been very open about its direction. Same with Avid. I frankly felt mislead by Apple (as did many others) when they released FCP X (while discontinuing its predecessor app). And yeah, I'm aware of the new revealings from the London group last night, and from the FAQ on the site.

Maybe Apple is keeping its cards close to its chest. There seems to be hints of possibilities in the future, but hints aren't enough to make business decisions like this.

I'd be happy as a "dead-horse pie" if Apple were to come out strong and tell us directly (those in the industry and in education) what the road map is for FCP X, rather than relying on 3rd parties for word of mouth. As it is, Apple has made it VERY difficult for people like us to plan ahead.

Best regards,

Dillon

PS: I'm sorry about saying "dead-horse pie". A moment of spontaneous, and dumb creativity.

Not sure what the hell a "dead-horse pie" even is, lol...but I have to agree totally with Dillon. If Apple had just communicated its intentions and given us (as an entire industry) some kind of roadmap, all of this angst could have been avoided. As it is, I have to treat 3rd party info as hearsay until proven otherwise...rumors don't make an adequate base to make decisions on. In that environment, I have to make my plans...and I plan to move on..

 

[Steve Dent]

Tom:

First of all, your response was well articulated and I think in the overall sense it is what's important.

But I am interested a bit in the specifics of how many of those Feature/episodic jobs there really are? It seems to me that most of the businesses that are likely to hire production/postproduction people are normal businesses that don't need much of those capabilities.

Oddly enough, if I was hiring for my business right now, I'd prefer someone that understood FCPX because I see it as being capable (with the other $49 programs) of the vast majority of our work, and more toward the future - and there are already tons of people that know Avid and FCP that can be hired if needed on a project basis or full time.

And I see most of the limitations being handled in the next six months to a year. (by the time your students graduate!).

Some current "pro" features may never be added but I suspect those will become less important as everything is recorded to solid state media. And eventually internet speeds will allow full collaboration as well.

Or you could have software that does all the editing work, and has pro features also. What is he supposed to tell his more ambitious students who want to work in broadcast? Also, some entry level positions in post houses, like layback or dubbing, rely on knowledge of those pro features. Can you put bars and tone on a broadcast tape without timecode? I can't.

There are more positions in broadcast than you might think. This includes TV stations, large post houses, boutiques, commercials houses, ad agencies, cinema, even small production companies that do the odd TV ad here & there.

You can't seriously tell someone training students for their careers to not worry about pro features like timecode, YUV monitoring and audio layback.

 

[Charlie Towers]

We have exactly the same problem as Tom Greenberg at a (British) College level - we have 50 seats with a combination of FCP 6, Final Cut Express, Protools, AVID and CS 5.5, we are also actively engaged in launching as an Apple Authorised Training Centre for Education.

We had budgeted for an upgrade of all machines to FCP 7 and to take our Apple Certified Trainer exams, but were advised to wait as FCP X was going to be amazing and what would be the point in using the 'old' software..... so we did and are now faced with the question of "What the he** are we going to deliver in September?". We cannot continue with the jumble of software we have as our new Cams aren't suitable for FCE or FCP 6.

We downloaded 2 copies of FCP X to see if it could work under the restrictions we have to have in an educational environment and there are too many issues at the moment for us to roll it out across all our seats - not that we could anyway as Educational Pricing - or even a way of licensing for multi-seat is STILL unavailable.

We have 10 AVID licenses and they are in our 'High-end' editing suite, we're going to extend our AVID licenses to all our machines as soon as possible (meaning mid-2012) as we can't simply 'swap' the budget we have available for FCP X to AVID.

We're going to launch all our new students with Premiere 5.5 as we are already licensed - the main deciding factors were:
1: Has to be a professional product - preparing our students for a (potential) professional career.
2: Students must be able to buy a copy to continue learning & developing in their own time.
3: Compatibility with our existing systems and ability to switch and transfer work between our Sound and Film & TV pathways.

Both our local ITV and BBC TV companies use AVID with the BBC using AVID and FCP.

We are not ignoring FCP X - I forsee a very good market for evening classes for prosumer, home and independant (one-man-band) editors and as soon as we can actually buy FCP X we'll outfit a room to cater for this. Maybe the program will grow, maybe it is the future, we can't ignore it, but it's not the 'Industry Standard' professional program at the moment and that's what we have to base our decision on.




http://reduser.net/forum/member.php?26281-Tom-Greenberg

 

[Geoff McLeod]

Terry this is an excellent point and often overlooked, especially here on Reduser, since a great many of the posters are involved in more high-end production, including TV and features. And granted that is the "holy grail" for film students, the reality is that things are changing rapidly and more and more work will be done purely for the web ... most will never have the chance to work on a TV or feature film set.

I know that in my main industry (internet marketing - which deals with health, finance, and many other niches), a whole world of possibilities is be opened up for those with a well rounded editing/effects skill set. For instance, there are many product launches being done that involve basic video editing/transitions ... simple text/image effects ... and yet pay fairly well. (Think of a keynote presentation intercut with footage of a person speaking into a camera ... only on steroids, kinda like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GGJfEk_xHfI that gives away information or sells a product.) The editors who can take the footage and direction from the client and do an amazing job will have an almost endless supply of work, provided they network and market themselves effectively.

And I think most film students will eventually come to the realization that working from home and making great income as a pro editor -- even if not in "Hollywood" -- is still a great thing. Unfortunately, most don't realize this until they are stuck in an office doing something they hate (no offense to anyone who is). But as you alluded to, defining "pro" primarily as those work with TV (around the world) or features potentially does some harm to those who enter the rapidly changing, broad professional market, where more and more work comes from non-TV or industry sources.

I agree. I would suggest them most editing can is now done by a single software product. I would speculate that Apple see this. After all, there are 10 jobs available at the top end of town, and possibly thousands available in small av-style productions for dvds and internet marketing.
I was just talking to someone who knows a former development guy close to Apple development. So much so, that he contacted them after it was released. Apparently they (Apple) were devastated by the negative response. However, the good news (according to him) is they are not abandoning pro users.
So why did they discontinue Final Cut Server? The coming thunderbolt technology has apparently made it redundant anyway.
So why hadn't they included all the connectivity in fcpx? Bad communication combined with a rushed release. Should have called it a beta.
After talking a while I think that fcpx with future connectivity could be real powerful. So much so that it could be exactly what the bulk of editors need to get a professional result within the one program.
I was once a graphic designer, I too didn't like it when any johnny-come-lately could use coral draw to do their company newsletter. But it happened.
But people still need designers with good design skills. In short, I think it would be more relevant to teach student of FCPx because not all of them will get the 10 jobs available in Hollywood. But they will end up using it for all the other stuff.
Just a point of view.

 

[Geoff McLeod]

Think of it like aircraft pilots, they start on propeller aircraft, not on jet aircraft. Students should lean the skills they need to get their first job... not their last job. So I think they should start on FCPx... and go from there. Quite honestly, I'm sick of students with big heads and inflated egos expecting to leave college and become the star editor/compositor. No one wants to start at the bottom anymore. The right attitude and the willingness to learn on the job is the most important thing - not so much the software.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

So why did they discontinue Final Cut Server? The coming thunderbolt technology has apparently made it redundant anyway.
...

After talking a while I think that fcpx with future connectivity could be real powerful. So much so that it could be exactly what the bulk of editors need to get a professional result within the one program.
...

Geoff- I believe this makes complete sense. I said a few weeks ago, (somewhere) that the database platform and the extended metadata capabilities of FCP-X suggested that individual seats of FCP-X might be able to interconnect in such as way as to emulate an FC Server set-up (or make it unnecessary). Lion might further enhance that capability and, as you suggest, Thunderbolt could complete the picture very well.

 

[Stephen Matthews]

The option to go into a sleeker simpler mode would be great, but don't force it, don't take away features, or customization. And for the love of good don't take away backwards compatibility. A one man band app would be good but it would be even better if it was the little brother to a full app connected to a full suite of apps(funny thing FCS was a one man band app to me, all in one computer utilized by one man, with far more power than one app alone). Choices they are nice, you take them away and you take away my business. I'm moving back to PC, and I'm picking up avid and DAvinci resolve to learn. til I move I have adobe covering my needs. I'm tired of apple and their path to Obsolescence with every one of their products, If I want to write I'll get a mac book, from now on my editing and post work will be done on a PC. this is not just because of FCPX, it's a lot of things apple has done to screw me, and to show who they want their clients to be, and I'm tired of it, to each their own though I understand for some this app might be perfect, it just isn't for me, and indicates the company and I are heading in separate directions.

have a good one!

 

[David Battistella]

I think some folks are jumping the gun and making big assumptions.

Another way to look at it is this.

I am holding out.

FCP 7 is a fantastic piece of software and the FCS SUITE are all still usable apps on my MAC. that I can still use for any project that comes across my desk. I still use Shake and it has been EOL for a while.

FCP X is available for me to learn and use right now in a limited role (which I would argue is how you should use any new software)

There are a few things that could happen in the coming months.

1. OS LION changes everyting in a SAN environment for FCP X
2. An update addressing most of the freakout, OMF, ETC.
3. Thunderbolt changes everything.
4. Maybe a new Mac Tower? I don't know?

So, while I evaluate a new tool, I can see whether things get filled out. If they don't I freeze my FCP 7 system or move on. Why jump ship now? It all still works really well.

If I was an educator I would be focusing on craft and trying to create nimble minded students ready for anything in an ever changing industry. Every tool should be on the table in any educational enviroment. FCP X should just be thrown into the mix with the rest of them.

Just my two cents.

David

 

[Eric Santiago]

...FCP 7 is a fantastic piece of software and the FCS SUITE are all still usable apps on my MAC...

It hasnt dissapeared from my Macs yet

...So, while I evaluate a new tool, I can see whether things get filled out. If they don't I freeze my FCP 7 system or move on. Why jump ship now? It all still works really well...

Well I know my local college where I teach FCP has jumped ship...from FCP to FCPX

...If I was an educator I would be focusing on craft and trying to create nimble minded students ready for anything in an ever changing industry...

From my perspective, were not all going to get a chance to work in big budget film, but I know a lot that love shooting video and would like to be creative

 

[Charlie Towers]

Well I know my local college where I teach FCP has jumped ship...from FCP to FCPX

How? No Academic licensing, no Educational pricing yet as far as I know..... unless I've missed something!

 

[dillont]

Total FAIL

Total FAIL

So we were finally contacted by Apple and got our Mac App Store download redemption codes and viola!

I have to download the software to EACH AND EVERY WORKSTATION!

1. Login to Mac App Store.
2. Retrieve redemption code (for that workstation).
3. Download.

Repeat for each app on every single machine!

I'm not one to use hyperbole when discussing technical things, but this is an EPIC FAIL. There is no way to do a distributed installation for entire classrooms / labs. This sucks.

Apple should really be embarrassed for itself. What a stupid, moronic, idiotic .... (etc).

Dillon

 

[Charlie Towers]

OK - we haven't heard anything yet! But glad you have - is there a reduction in price?

 

[dillont]

Charlie,

We have an annual subscription plan with Apple, and the price didn't change. One lump sum to access any and all updates pertaining to FC Studio. Our contract expires next month and it looks like we're going to let it expire and pursue relationship with Adobe/Avid.

What a shame.

OK - we haven't heard anything yet! But glad you have - is there a reduction in price?

 

[Eric Santiago]

Charlie,

We have an annual subscription plan with Apple, and the price didn't change. One lump sum to access any and all updates pertaining to FC Studio. Our contract expires next month and it looks like we're going to let it expire and pursue relationship with Adobe/Avid.

What a shame.

Even though Im for learning FCPX, I think at this point I would take advantage of going the Avid route and not the Adobe (since you have that option installed). However I've been using all three for many years in so many different iterations and I find Avid the most cumbersome of them all for learning in a production environment. I cant even imagine how one with no access to resources (home consumer) would learn such an app. Thats my opinion of course.

 

[Charlie Towers]

Charlie,

We have an annual subscription plan with Apple, and the price didn't change. One lump sum to access any and all updates pertaining to FC Studio. Our contract expires next month and it looks like we're going to let it expire and pursue relationship with Adobe/Avid.

What a shame.

Thanks Dillion, we've definitely missed out on that then - we have agreements in place for Snow Leopard and iLife/iWork, but not for FCP. If FCPX remains £179.99 that just strengthens the case for the AVID at the same price.

As you say - what a shame

Having to download the software on every machine sounds just plain nuts, we have 50! My technician will be a tad miffed if we reconsider.....