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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The Era of RED "DSMC" with Scarlet & Epic... Canon "NO" more.

Ketch Rossi

Ketch Rossi

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First of all, mods forgive me if this belongs else were. :)

Having been a CANON Shooter for over twenty years, I have been as happy and frustrated as any one else by the ups and downs of this company during this past two decades, or so, but recently it has been nothing but frustrations and disappointments, I will elaborate on this.

I have been getting emails, PM's and calls about why have I sold every single piece of Canon gear, wasn't I the Canon knows it all guy, and had every Canon Prime and the top of the line Cameras? The one to always recommend Canon gear and turned HUNDREDS of shooters, in to Canon Shooters? The one to recommend and push every one to buy Canon lenses for their RED ONE's? So why sale everything and say "NO MORE CANON" what did I knew that other didn't?

Well NO, I don't know anything more then any one else, or maybe few things, and NO I never worked for canon, and or gained commission in any of their products, as I don't get any commissions on the products offered here at a discount price, I just like to help when I can, and always offer my honest opinion about a product I use, and if I like it I will recommend others to purchase it and use it. I decided that in off is in off, and this Business Model CANON has been adopting of literally screwing its customers, has just simply P#@!$ me OFF, just in this past few models starting form the 1D III it was a mess and lost half the camera value, about 2k, in just few months due to a serious issue with their focusing system, which toucked for ever to fix, and instead of recalling the cameras, they lef them on the market, and then issue a DOT policy for the fixed, ones, so no one wnated to buy your screwed up camera, even if it was now fixed, so BAAAM, you lost 2k.

Then came the 1Ds III time, as just short after the release of the camera, here came the 5D II with similar specs, and lowered the 1Ds III value literally in half, and this time BAAAM, you lost 4k, and now they are doing it again to the 5D II customers with the very PREMATURE introduction of the 7D!?

Here comes the "RED" MODEL, yes no problem keep your RED ONE and use the S$#@!@ out of, and then just returned to us, and will give you FULL credit towards your purchase of OUR NEW Model "EPIC", and then introduce such models with MODULARITY and UPGRADABILITY freedom, well this sounds like a much better investment to me, and a far better customer oriented Business then the CANON I sale you this now, and get ready to find out that will be worthless tomorrow, since we will be releasing something new with just in off features to make your completely uselessly outdated and worth half its value.

Now I will not even get to compare specs, and or mention customer service "HUGE" differences and the way I fill about, but I believe every one here knows exactly what I'm talking about, as no one likes to buy a product and then be forgotten and or wait for ever for a response, I incredibly pleased with RED"s performance as far as their customer service, as much as I have been pleased with their products.


So there you have it, and now I look forward like never before to Scarlet, Epic, married with the truly formidable series of RED PRO lenses and to what they have to offer to me as an ARTIST's Tool, and knowing that my investment is not as fragile as it has lately been with Canon, and or manufacturers that use the same business model.
 
I agree Ketch, I've had similar issues with Sony, after I purchased my DSLR from them a few months later a better version came out at an even lower price, followed by 3 other models that were better and even lower priced then that one...fair enough If I only had to buy ONE piece to make mine as equal as those, no. I have to buy a whole body that soon becomes worthless.

RED has solved this issue with Modularity. At least now I can always get the next best thing and interchange it with my current.

Great rant :)
 
I agree with you 100% of service and the culture of the company, but I disagree about putting out new cameras too soon.

If newer cameras with better technology can be put out, then put them out, I say. Sure, you might think you have lost money on your 1DsIII, but someone else is going to be extremely happy to get a 5D2 at a great price. If you have the big bucks to get a 1DsIII, then you take your chances on something better coming out. I think companies should not withhold technology to "protect" older models. That is part of the problem, IMO, not part of the solution. Sony has been doing that kind of thing for years. They could not possibly put out an S35mm EX3, because it would "damage" their F23 and F950 sales, for example.

When Jim announced the DSMC line, there were some people vocally denouncing the new lineup up because it would "cheapen" their Red Ones. So basically, they were asking for Jim to "hold back" the new technology. That is not the answer, IMO.

I say, as soon as the new technology is ready, release it. And yes, I agree that modularity is a great answer to this question moving forward.
 
Thanks for putting up with my "ranting" guys :)

Tom,

I'm absolutely in favor of company putting out a better product, no doubt technology advancements must continue to come, but not so in such are the ways of Canon and others, it makes no difference if you have the money to buy a 1Ds III, I did, but I didn't have money to trow away as I ended up doing as the re sale value hit the trash with the announcement of the 5D II as the 5D II is hitting the trash now with the announcement of the 7D, this is not cool at all, and RED is so very FAR to be compared to this companie's doing, RED has in deed continued their progress with the DSMC line, but it is also offering 100% credit to those that want to upgrade, and have continuously updated and even upgraded hardware "FOR FREE" so I definitely think they are for sure so far AWAY and APART from any other company I ever dealt with so far.

So it is not that companies should not advance their technologies and release new and better products, but they should do so in the right way, not releasing bit by bit, so to continuously getting the customer to be forced to upgrade by loosing His/Hers A#@! or stay in the past!

What Canon has been doing is holding back on each release so that they can make more money on an additional release of the same exact thing, they already had when the previous model was released, and they play catch up at the expense of their customers, and their service.
 
I agree with you, and I think that the full-value trade in, the free modules with Epic X, all of these things are amazing, and will eventually force other companies to stop abusing their customers. Look at what is already happening. Would Canon have put out a "full manual" expansion on the firmware -- or "build" -- of the 5D2 without Red leading the way? Unlikely.

But let's remember that the only reason Jim could come into the digital cinema market and kick everyone's ass with a S35mm RAW camera is precisely because he WASN'T trying to "protect" any older models. So to ask him now to withhold new cameras or protect older ones would not be the right answer, IMO. Wouldn't that hamstring Jim?

Also, I don't think that the 7D has made my 5D2 useless in any way. It's a freekin 21MP RAW DSLR that I can shoot with at ISO 3200 and make gorgeous 4K renders. To me, that is a miracle. But even if I wanted to sell it and get a 7D, I wouldn't lose that much money on it. I paid something like $2,700, and have already used the camera to earn ten or twenty times that amount in half a year.
 
I need to add that the Canon 7D isn't a replacement for the 5D. I just ordered a 5D instead of waiting for a 7D because the 7D isn't a full frame camera and it is lower resolution than the 5D. The 5D costs $800 more because it is still a better camera.
 
Off course Tom no one is asking any one to hold technology back, but I'm asking that consumer be taken in consideration when updating products, and do so in a were the customer does not loose more then He/She has to, again we do know that electronics, are like Cars, they loose their value as soon as you have them in your possession, and its okay, what is not okay is to do it the way Canon has been doing it.



Kinoeye, I'm well aware of the specs for both cameras, and believe me that the only difference here, is not the MP's cause from 18 to 21 there is really not a big lap of difference, the only difference here is the FF, but it is still considered a low blow on the 5D II, and not by me.
 
at first I was pissed with the announcement of scarlet.. I thought, Oh great.. I just spent 17.5 grand on a body that in just a short amount of time, some guy with 4k cash can get better specs.. but then I started really thinking about the option to upgrade to an epic X for just 10k more.. and that is actually a really sweet deal. So over all im really stoked, and love RED for that. they could have just boned us all, but they treat customers with respect.
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
at first I was pissed with the announcement of scarlet.. I thought, Oh great.. I just spent 17.5 grand on a body that in just a short amount of time, some guy with 4k cash can get better specs.. but then I started really thinking about the option to upgrade to an epic X for just 10k more.. and that is actually a really sweet deal. So over all im really stoked, and love RED for that. they could have just boned us all, but they treat customers with respect.
Click to expand...

Exactly my point Zak!
 
I have been feeling this with nikon for some time (a decade?)

I have a perfectly functioning F3 and Fm2, and F4 and F5, all have removable backs and could have accepted a digital back (well the f5 anyway - im sure)

Instead Ive been 'forced' to buy D1 (tiny file), D100 (tiny buffer), D70 (smallish file),D80 (getting there at low ISO) ,90 (ok I bought that D90 forfun),D3 (very decent camera) because they produced what the industry expected at the time or sorted out a major flaw of the version before

Not only is it a money drain but also a waste of environment stuff

My 5d has just reached 10,000 clips so even with a trade it actually offers kind of good value on a day rental or cost per clip basis

I worry that scarlet will be able to compete with the latest DSLR(stills) and VSDLR offerings however

The technology waste cycle is just part of like .. or is it .. Id like to hope not


S
 
the fact that those extra modules and just a extra few thousand dollars brings you camera up to the next generation is really something...its probably the best rewards program ever! It's also the fact that it's actually got even subtle differences to make it even better, different material used, colour etc. its really something special to own!

why worry about the competition side? Its great, it'll mean that you will end up with better products at a cheaper price then before when people start moving towards RED and all this 'its a scam!' shouts from Canon fan boys fades out and people start seeing that really...there is an economical and friendly way to do business that benefits the company and customer.

Maybe Canon CEO's will eventually open up and start posting on forums too :P

Hey, this is just the start...who knows what will happen!
 
Well Morgan, I know I wasn't alone ":)


Correct Imran, and I worry "NOT" or care at all, about what others do, its just that I did lost several thousand dollars thanks to their ways of doing business, but I also lost quarter of a Mil on my house, so I guess we just have to learn and let go of the past and just look at what the feature brings ":)
 
Imran Farouk said:
Hey, this is just the start...who knows what will happen!
Click to expand...

True story Imran. True story.

Jim's business model is the dawn of a new age for filmmakers, photographers, etc. Let's see where everything is at in 10 years. I can't even wait. :drool5:
 
"I just bought a brand new video card/CPU and in less than 6 months they've already increased the speed and decreased the power consumption. The resale market is almost nonexistent."

The first mistake you made was to count on resale value.

The AF issue is definitely skeezy but I don't see any problem with releasing a newer better model every 18 months.
 
Every 6 months technology will evolve and prices will drop....thats the theory isnt it? Though theres a limit to that theory, although technology evolves and prices drop, don't try and screw your customers from before so you can get new customers...

5D II - should've been released with everything activated, not needing a firmware update...I'm sure they could do one to update it so its got a better FPS on with the video mode...
7D...activated certain features...not a full frame sensor...

why is it that RED seems to be the only one going 'here trade in your camera you bought from us and get one better with all the modules to make it equal to your old one for only a few extra thousand..."
Oh and for all those new customers...heres the 2/3's camera...free firmware upgrades...total support from a community and free programs etc.

I can get use to this way of life...I actually feel for once a company is listening...
We say "this" and RED says "here"...not always...there is compromises...but eventually you get what you want right?

I'm not the greatest at canon products so my above bit about canon maybe off...but I'm sure you kinda get what I mean...

Like i said...
a war is coming that'll change up the way business is done...
That wars starting soon...
and its going to be one hell of a ride...but a hell of a lota fun :)
 
Canon still can do broadcast live, but that may change IF RED does that also. I will not look at canon anymore unless they come out with Global Shutter, HDR, 4K LIVE, Uncompressed RAW Fiber Optic Output, Modular, etc. I do want more competition but competition towards other companies not to their consumers or their own company.
 
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