The Epic-S issue

[emil tanem]

I apologize if this is covered someplace else.

With the Nov.3 event looming, it would be nice to know what status we have on the Epic-S.

Having to work out several alternate plans depending on what Scarlet will be can be a lot of work, but adding to that the uncertainty on the status of Epic-S makes it very hard.
Although I'm happy to see Scarlet coming, I'm afraid a Scarlet announcement followed by a very short time before beginning of sales without any info on the Epic-S is a worst-case-scenario.
These cameras are probably not really comparable, but for some of us, it's crucial info.

I just hope someone from Red would be polite and give us something to go on in good time before Nov 3rd.

 

[Maxi Claudio]

I really don't think anyone at Red is going to spoil their Nov. 3rd announcements. Particularly up against Canon.

 

[Scott Crawley]

There is no uncertainty about the status of Epic-S. It will come after Scarlet fixed supply lines are well established and the Epic-X stages have run their course.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

If I were a betting man I would say it's a safe bet that there'll be an Epic-S update on Nov 3. Which means you'll have between 30-60 minutes to make a decision before the red store opens and is instantaneously sold out of whatever is announced for shipping.

 

[David Kudell]

My gut feeling is that the two will merge and Scarlet will end up being essentially Epic-S.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

There is no uncertainty about the status of Epic-S. It will come after Scarlet fixed supply lines are well established and the Epic-X stages have run their course.

You may be the only one on planet Earth with that perspective. Can you give me a few stock picks and tell me who is going to win next year's Tour de France as well? lol

 

[Scott Crawley]

You may be the only one on planet Earth with that perspective. Can you give me a few stock picks and tell me who is going to win next year's Tour de France as well? lol

That may be true, but this is the last official word of substance that I have seen, so I'm sticking with it until 11/3.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

That may be true, but this is the last official word of substance that I have seen, so I'm sticking with it until 11/3.

That may be true but are you not just a little phased by the rather dramatic tone of Jim's comments and promises that essentially say "forget everything you think you know about Scarlet, because it has changed and we'll let you know how on 11/3." Seems to me, the one thing you CAN'T count on is that things will be just like "the last word of substance," almost by definition. But... at least we do know one thing for sure (I think), time will tell. :shocked:

 

[Scott Crawley]

That may be true but are you not just a little phased by the rather dramatic tone of Jim's comments and promises that essentially say "forget everything you think you knows about Scarlet, because it has changed and we'll let you know how on 11/3." Seems to me, the one thing you CAN'T count on is that things will be just like "the last word of substance," almost by definition. But... at least we do know one thing for sure (I think), time will tell. :shocked:

Well I don't doubt that Scarlet has changed or that Epic-S will change because Jim has said that, but everything else is speculative. I've spent too many years now getting cranked up over Scarlet speculation and I just won't do it any more. For example; Jim suggested that Scarlet is getting a big boost. I accept that as fact, but he has said nothing of how or if that change will impact Epic-S so I'm just going to leave that alone. He scarcely even mentions Scarlet and Epic-S in the same post any more so I see no justifiable reason to expect him to merge them back together again. I'm going to stick with a zone defense with this guy and not play him too close, he could go for the fast break or do a 180.

Until Jim squeezes out another nugget, the last word is all we have. Red is a wild card and all bets are off.

 

[Jason Diamond]

I'd say get your buying button-finger ready on nov 3rd at 7p PST... pre-orders start on that day.

Jason

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Well I don't doubt that Scarlet has changed or that Epic-S will change because Jim has said that, but everything else is speculative. I've spent too many years now getting cranked up over Scarlet speculation and I just won't do it any more.

Until Jim squeezes out another nugget, the last word is all we have. Red is a wild card and all bets are off.

Not sure I understand how "...I just won't do it anymore." squares with your comments, but...

Anyway, I totally agree that "everything is speculative" at this point but that's sort of why I take issue with your "no uncertainty about the status of Epic-S" comment. No uncertainty, really? If someone came on here and read your comment, they might, given the absolutist tone of it, actually think you know something that you don't. It just seems to me that it is this sort of thing that fosters FUD here; a week goes by and someone else states, as "fact" (because they read it somewhere here on REDuser) that Epic-S will ship very soon. And the circle of confusion gets larger and larger with this sort of game of telephone. :banghead:

 

[Sam Eilertsen]

WARNING. Guessing may elevate your expectations beyond reasonable levels.

Jim

Be careful, guys

 

[Scott Crawley]

Not sure I understand how "...I just won't do it anymore." squares with your comments, but...

Anyway, I totally agree that "everything is speculative" at this point but that's sort of why I take issue with your "no uncertainty about the status of Epic-S" comment. No uncertainty, really? If someone came on here and read your comment, they might, given the absolutist tone of it, actually think you know something that you don't. It just seems to me that it is this sort of thing that fosters FUD here; a week goes by and someone else states, as "fact" (because they read it somewhere here on REDuser) that Epic-S will ship very soon. And the circle of confusion gets larger and larger with this sort of game of telephone. :banghead:

I'm not speculating, just repeating the last most specific information to come from Jim as best I understand it. Any uncertainty about the "S" arose after Jim's last roadmap post and he has since stated that Epic-S is still on in a post to Liam Hall.

What did I state that you would call speculation? "Forget everything you think you know about Scarlet." Was the comment. To extend that to Epic-S is the FUD, I am being careful not to do that. I'm sorry if you feel I am doing otherwise.

Edit: the post to Liam in direct response to the Epic-S uncertainty was definitely vague but reassuring:

The camera you want is later this year. This is the problem I talked about. Speculation is either that we have taken something off the table (I already posted it wasn't) or that we are giving away a free Las Vegas house with every purchase over $100. (rolls eyes)

Jim

It is reasonably valid to speculate that the "S" and Scarlet may become one and the same again, given the evasive nature of Jim's remarks ever since the day the two were split, but I would rather take Jim's statements as literally as possible. The camera concept that we have come to call Epic-S is still on the table. That was the last definitive word on the subject i have seen, so that is what i hoped to convey. Please feel free to take issue with my interpretation if you wish.

I don't personally give a shit if they call it Scarlet in the end. It is akin to bitching that Apple called the new phone 4S instead of 5. As far as we know it is the same phone, so why should it matter?

 

[Bing Bailey]

it makes more sense to merge scarlet and epic-s to be one camera. they can amortize their R&D costs better. the fact so many people are using DSLR's to shoot content despite their horrible artifacts and because of the larger sensor says indies want S35 sized sensors whether that be 3k , 4k or 5k. there is nothing stopping them from selling a b4 mount and windowing to allow broadcasters shoot in a 2/3 style format to 2k/1080p if they wish to.

I think its likely scarlet/epic-s will be S35 Sensor , 4 or 5k , 30 or 60FPS max with 120 possible at lower window sizes. broadcast equipment tends to sell in the 10 to 30k range now. it wouldn't be hard to adapt for eng/broadcast style with the right mount. then make up the lower price with selling the same accessories used for Epic

Bigger question is what will the price be. that could change based on what canon announces. makes sense to see what canon announces first on nov 3 and adjust the price accordingly. if its under 10k I'll be amazed.

 

[kylebainter]

You may be the only one on planet Earth with that perspective. Can you give me a few stock picks and tell me who is going to win next year's Tour de France as well? lol

Duh... Contador (as long as he's eating spanish beef).

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Duh... Contador (as long as he's eating spanish beef).

Thanks, Kyle... now, if you could tell us a little about Scarlet... :laugh:

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

There is no uncertainty about the status of Epic-S. It will come after Scarlet fixed supply lines are well established and the Epic-X stages have run their course.

*sighs*

From Jim:

EPIC-S... – 06-06-2011, 01:40 AM
EPIC-S is dependent on a few things...

1. EPIC-X finished and shipping most of the orders.

2. The rework of the camera given less electronics and features.

3. Cost saving advantages from a mature assembly process and efficiency of production techniques.

We expect EPIC-S to be in production in Fall of this year. That presupposes no more supply chain surprises.

Jim



So that was back in June, and timescales have slipped, but the point is EPIC-S depends on EPIC-X production status and techniques. NOT Scarlet.

Mike

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I'm not speculating, just repeating the last most specific information to come from Jim as best I understand it. Any uncertainty about the "S" arose after Jim's last roadmap post and he has since stated that Epic-S is still on in a post to Liam Hall.

What did I state that you would call speculation? "Forget everything you think you know about Scarlet." Was the comment. To extend that to Epic-S is the FUD, I am being careful not to do that. I'm sorry if you feel I am doing otherwise.

Edit: the post to Liam in direct response to the Epic-S uncertainty was definitely vague but reassuring:



It is reasonably valid to speculate that the "S" and Scarlet may become one and the same again, given the evasive nature of Jim's remarks ever since the day the two were split, but I would rather take Jim's statements as literally as possible. The camera concept that we have come to call Epic-S is still on the table. I don't personally give a shit if they call it Scarlet in the end.

Scott - I'll admit you have completely lost me as to what you think is going to happen/not happen, what is fact and what is speculation, and what you are gleaning or not gleaning from Jim's statements prior to, and as a result of, his recent commentary. I think I have followed the Scarlet progress as closely as anyone and, given Jim's recent comments which seem to throw everything we thought we knew into question, I have absolutely no idea what to expect on November 3rd.

My basic point was simply that stating there to be "no uncertainty" is simply not a "fact" but a, IMHO, very subjective opinion, which, of course, you are entitled to. :yes nod:

EDIT: I should say that my take on Jim's comments, as he seemed to be mashing together some potential changes in Scarlet that MIGHT (emphasis) effect Epic-S (since he answered questions about it in the same context of discussing Scarlet) is that the two development paths may have started to influence each other. Of course, THAT, too is an unknown - hence, IMO EVERYTHING is subject to change (hmmm, where have I heard that before?)

 

[Scott Crawley]

Scott - I'll admit you have completely lost me as to what you think is going to happen/not happen, what is fact and what is speculation, and what you are gleaning or not gleaning from Jim's statements prior to, and as a result of, his recent commentary. I think I have followed the Scarlet progress as closely as anyone and, given Jim's recent comments which seem to throw everything we thought we knew into question, I have absolutely no idea what to expect on November 3rd.

My basic point was simply that stating there to be "no uncertainty" is simply not a "fact" but a, IMHO, very subjective opinion, which, of course, you are entitled to. :yes nod:

EDIT: I should say that my take on Jim's comments, as he seemed to be mashing together some potential changes in Scarlet that MIGHT (emphasis) effect Epic-S (since he answered questions about it in the same context of discussing Scarlet) is that the two development paths may have started to influence each other. Of course, THAT, too is an unknown - hence, IMO EVERYTHING is subject to change (hmmm, where have I heard that before?)

Fair enough. I don't claim to know any "facts" RE either of these cameras. I trust that "The camera you want is later..." as it pertains to the "S" is true. I refuse to get all excited, thinking that the Epic-S will be available to order on Nov. 3. 11/3 is a day for Scarlet. I'd be happy to clarify my thoughts beyond that, but it just doesn't matter. :beer:

*sighs*



So that was back in June, and timescales have slipped, but the point is EPIC-S depends on EPIC-X production status and techniques. NOT Scarlet.

Mike

Right...didn't say it was dependent upon Scarlet, just that Scarlet fixed would likely happen before Epic-S. Neither Jim nor Jarred have deviated from that prioritized list in more than a year (Correction: almost a year) in anything I have read.

 

[emil tanem]

It seems to me my initial request for some slight pre-3/11 key information - not hype(-rventilating customers) is all the more shown in this thread.

I have no idea if there's many like me out there, but I have som very specific needs for the camera, which EPIC-S hits spot on. Scarlet is going to be a very good camera, but my budget can't cover both a Scarlet and an Epic-S.
Though. If it becomes clear that I'd have to buy a Scarlet first, then rapidly swap it for an Epic-S. What extra costs would that give? Could per say the Red 18-85mm also be used on the Scarlet? It seems so by redstore.. The crop factor sure is interesting to work with, but still.. for a short while.