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The differences between Panasonic PF11 and PF12

Kaku Ito

Kaku Ito

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I went to help calibrating my client's PF11 the other day and I was surprised with the performance differences between their PF11 and my PF12.

I was trying to calibrate their PF11 with Klein K10 and Calman. I spent quite a lot with K10 and Calman calibrating lots of different displays in my company including PF12. So i was kind of expecting easy session to calibrate PF11 since I was used to doing PF12, but I was wrong.

The brightness does not reach the same amount, it does not have the same dynamic range, narrower color range plus lacking shared presets.

If you are planning to buy a plasma, you should check out PF12 first.

Also, I think probably the first adopted technology from Pioneer, Panasonic is coming out with V2 series consumer Plasma with NEOPDP that emphasizes blacker black. People with HDMI should be happy with this.

http://panasonic.jp/viera/v2special/
 
This V2 promises a lot, will see.

I still in love with actual Pioneer, but if Panasonic update their panels...

Thanks for the input Mr. Kaku.
 
I can chime in here - having just installed a Panasonic 58" series 12 in a grading theater (as an auxiliary display).

I also calibrated the Panasonic with a Klein K-10 probe and Cinespace software (as well as the excellent Klein software for setting white & blackpoint).

The panel is gorgeous, really looks good at viewing distance.

Two issues that bother me (with all plasmas):

1) plasma 'chatter' - if you look closely, especially at darker areas, you can see the instability that is the hallmark of plasma displays. This is no biggie at distance but up close it's distracting.

2) Significant RGB decoupling errors. This is also typical of plasmas, and requires high resolution cube LUTs to overcome.

Decoupling error is the difference between grey value and the sum of r+g+b - when it's not possible to break down the component values of RGB to get the color value, managing color becomes hit & miss, affecting overall accuracy of the display.

The good news is that Cinespace and Truelight render this a non-issue (never used Calman, don't know much about it).

I find it pointless to do critical work without sophisticated color management - espcially with all the 'under the hood' voodoo that goes on with LCD / Plasma / etc... - when these devices are nearly always hooked up to computers.


EDIT:

And then there's this:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/10/panasonics-response-on-shifting-black-levels-in-plasma-hdtvs/

not sure if it will affect commercial grade plasmas - anyone out there know more about this in relation to the Series 12?
 
The PF12's are a noticeable step better. Currently they are only available in 58" and LARGER with the 2009 NeoPDP panel design. Panasonic skipped over the 1080p NeoPDP panels in the form of a 42" and 50" 1080p "PF12" model for now. The models available are 720p only. However, this should change by the time NAB rolls around. The new panels, essentially 13th-generation are already heading to consumer distribution, this is the new G2 and V2 series as labeled in Japan. In N. America, the consumer models are G20, G25 and V20, V25. Internationally, the V-series is VT25. The V25's / VT25's are 3D capable.

New Panny Pro Plasmas are due shortly and a couple models should provide 3D options in the pro line. Also expecting new HDMI 1.4 compliant input boards for the pro models to ship at the same time.

The upcoming Pro models have much improved black levels, on the same level as some of the Pioneer Kuro implementations, but overall much better DR and color fidelity. IMO the Kuros are highly overrated. I've installed and calibrated many of them over the past couple years and had a 60" Kuro (9th-gen) in my conference/screening room until recently when I leased out the office space, but that's another story.

The shifting black levels issue is known and affects ALL plasma displays. However, it was exceedingly bad on the G and V series NeoPDP panels from '09. As of right now, I don't know if it will affect the new 2010 model panels, which are a different design. This flaw does effect the current TH-PF12xx and larger displays.

The V-series now use a single front glass instead of dual front glass, or so it seems. And phosphor response has been greatly improved for red and green, to eliminate the green/yellow trailing effect.

FWIW, I'm going to buy a 50" Panny V25 (3D enabled) for my new editing/grading monitor, that's the North American TC-P50V25 model. I will consider the Pro Series version of this display for the extra controls and input options if the price is not too far out of line and they can deliver in a timely manner. I'm expecting to see all these new plasmas on display at NAB.
 
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Jeff, thanks for the valuable, detailed, thought after input. 3D age is just right there even for the consumer.
 
Oh forgot to thank John for his information, too. Thanks.
 
58 inch is already out in Japan.
 
58" PF12 has been available for some time in north america, around 8 months now. About $2500 USD.

I could not get any info on future Pro series panels at NAB. In fact I had one Panasonic rep tell me that all Pro series plasmas would be 65" and larger from here on out and smaller screen sizes would be LCD only. Smaller plasmas would be relegated to the Viera line only. The VT25 series which will start shipping literally any day now, is based on the 13th generation panel and has all the ISFcc calibration controls and RS232 input, etc.. that we find on the Pro plasmas. The only downfall is it does not accept modular interface boards, so no HD-SDI input. I can live without that though and use an AJA or BlackMagic converter. I refuse to pay $2500 for an SDI interface these days when the monitor itself is $2250. And that's talking about the 50" VT25. It's also 3D capable if that floats your boat.

I have an order in for a 50" VT25... Hoping to get it within the next 2 to 3 weeks.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
58" PF12 has been available for some time in north america, around 8 months now. About $2500 USD.

I could not get any info on future Pro series panels at NAB. In fact I had one Panasonic rep tell me that all Pro series plasmas would be 65" and larger from here on out and smaller screen sizes would be LCD only. Smaller plasmas would be relegated to the Viera line only. The VT25 series which will start shipping literally any day now, is based on the 13th generation panel and has all the ISFcc calibration controls and RS232 input, etc.. that we find on the Pro plasmas. The only downfall is it does not accept modular interface boards, so no HD-SDI input. I can live without that though and use an AJA or BlackMagic converter. I refuse to pay $2500 for an SDI interface these days when the monitor itself is $2250. And that's talking about the 50" VT25. It's also 3D capable if that floats your boat.

I have an order in for a 50" VT25... Hoping to get it within the next 2 to 3 weeks.
Click to expand...

awesome Jeff, where do you order your V25? amazon?

the 58" 12 is great, but its too big for our other edit suites... 42 to 50" is ideal

thanks!
 
jouli said:
I'm holding out for a 58" Panasonic PF12. Does anyone know when they'll be out? They're normally released autumn time aren't they?
Thanks!
Click to expand...

They're out now - I installed one in a DI theater I built a couple of months ago. It's really a great display.

cheers,

JT
 
John / Jeff,

I'm about to pull the trigger and order a monitor.. After NAB, with the information I received, I feel it's better for me to go with HD-SDI vs an HDMI connection. The general consensus that I have gotten is that HDMI, will always try and make the image look as good as possible given the conditions of the display and HD-SDI will give you more of a what you see is what you get output. I have my eye on a Series 12 right now. When it comes down to it, do you think a Series 12 hooked up to a Kona 3 card or a VT25 using an MXO2 mini will give me the most accurate result? Or do you feel that they are both good solutions, but it depends on budget to decide which solution works best for the money and my scenario?
 
Tim,

42 inch is not out. I think Panasonic still has to get rid of PF11 stock.
 
Jason Samuel said:
John / Jeff,

I'm about to pull the trigger and order a monitor.. After NAB, with the information I received, I feel it's better for me to go with HD-SDI vs an HDMI connection. The general consensus that I have gotten is that HDMI, will always try and make the image look as good as possible given the conditions of the display and HD-SDI will give you more of a what you see is what you get output. I have my eye on a Series 12 right now. When it comes down to it, do you think a Series 12 hooked up to a Kona 3 card or a VT25 using an MXO2 mini will give me the most accurate result? Or do you feel that they are both good solutions, but it depends on budget to decide which solution works best for the money and my scenario?
Click to expand...

I guess it depends on what exactly you want to do. If you have to have SDI, then you're only choice, today, is the Series 12. If you are ok with HDMI (which I don't think has any drawbacks vs SDI as long as you know what's happening along the digital display chain) then the VT25 might be a better option since it's got the newer panel, but I haven't seen it, so I can't say from personal experience. I can, however, recommend the Series 12, and even with HDMI input it's rock solid.

I always use color management (probe to create profiles and generate target emulation LUTs), so I always have confidence in what I see onscreen. I would not consider, under ANY circumstances, performing color critical work without color management (i.e. Cinespace or Truelight).

regards,

John T.
 
FWIW, I've been told by two separate Panasonic reps in the past few months, before NAB, that there would be more new 12-series models. Which totally makes sense as the 12th genration panels are old now. What I can't seem to get an answer about is if there will be new Pro models using the 13th generation panel, or what's up with 1080p pro series displays in the 50" and 42" sizes.

PF11 stock is a tough sell as no one is discounting prices on them (if they still have them) and most places have been out of stock for some time. All the PF11 models have been officially listed as discontinued since about October '09. I would not recommend an 11-series to anyone at this point. They're noticeably inferior to the 12th generation panels and you won't be saving any money by picking one up.

HDMI is just fine for input and does not have any shortcomings compared to an SDI signal, provided you feed the display a 10bit HDMI feed. In fact, there are a great many plasmas out there in post houses being driving by HDMI and DVI input, doing real color work. The key is good color management, as John points out.

Personally, I'm going for the VT25. It is the 13th generation panel and has much better contrast and black levels compared to the 12th generation panels. I can feed it HDMI up to 1.4, including 3D. I doubt I will use the 3D functionality any time soon, but it is there if I choose to. For SDI input, I will be using an AJA Hi5-3G HD-SDI to HDMI 1.3a converter. These converters perform very well and pass through 10 and 12 bit color.

Tim, I have the 50" VT25 on order through a regional distributor that supplies me with a lot of my electronics, display hardware, PC components, etc.. I have a tentative price of about $2300. For other sources you should check out clevelandplasma.com, Huppins/OneCall, and others. I don't have a delivery date yet. But should be real soon. Currently the 50" VT20 model can be purchased at Best Buy Magnolia centers. It's the same panel, but lacks the ISFcc calibration controls and RS-232 input. They're selling it for $2499 and throwing in a 3D Blu-Ray player, two 3D shutter glasses and a 3D BD movie. I would've been tempted, but the lack of the calibration controls is making me wait for the VT25, that and the ugly silver bezel. VT20 models are currently a BestBuy exclusive and will later migrate to Sears and a few other big-box retailers. The VT25 is superior and will sell just about everywhere else.

Oh yeah, VT25's will come in 46, 50, 54 and 65 inch sizes. If you want a 42", you will have to step down to the G25 series. Which is half the price and available now. Very nice monitors, but they lack the ISFcc calibration functions, have a somewhat inferior AR filter and don't support 96Hz playback for 24fps material, only 48fps. Which makes for some flickering at times.
 
Thanks for all the info Jeff. Seems like I'll be getting myself a VT25. Any ideas on how soon "soon" is on delivery date? Are we talking days, weeks, or months? I'd love to get one of these in mid may. Any recommendations on someone in New York to calibrate it would be great. Also, how often do I need someone to come in and do this? Or is it one and done?

I just want to make sure I'm covered if I get a V25, Matrox mxo2 mini to pump it 10bit over HDMI, and a tangent wave to control Apple color. What else would I need to do to make sure color management is all set. Any links to other information would be helpful as this is a new area for me.
 
VT25's in 50 and 54 inch are supposed to ship the first half of May, but no guarantees on that. 65" and 85" are supposed to ship in July. There will be no 42" for the VT25, 46" has no dates listed for it from any suppliers I've talked to, but there is at least a model number entry for it. Panasonic had about a dozen of the 54" VT25 models on display at NAB showing 3D content.

Calibration of plasmas is a bit involved. First its best to condition the display for about 100 hours or so before even bothering with a calibration. Then a full calibration should be performed about every 1000 hours. If the display is being used for color work, you will want to calibrate more often and at least check contrast levels every week or two and always if lighting, temperature or even humidity change noticeably. With plasmas we often need more frequent calibrations in the beginning until the panel stabilizes somewhat. All plasma panels change over time, doesn't matter the brand or model or whatever, they all change. These are new panels coming out, no one has experience with them, so there are a lot of unknowns with the 13th-gen PDP. If you have the room for it and want something that a lot more people are already familiar with, the 58" TH-58PF12UK is about $2500~$2600 and uses the 12th gen PDP. Unfortunately, you have to buy the $2500 HD-SDI option to get 1080p 10bit into the display.

I don't have any recommendations for someone to do calibrations in NYC. I'm sure there are a number of people who do it -- it's a big enough place to find anything most of the time.

If you have multiple displays to calibrate, it may be worth looking into learning to do it yourself and buying the tools. Take a look here: http://www.spectracal.com

You can also get by with cheaper calibration software and tools, like the Spyder3 Elite or the Eye One when purchased on their own. However, I've found both to be inconsistent unless given to a shop like Specracal and let them verify and calibrate the color probe.

I'm not very familiar with the MXO2 products, but should be OK on that end.
 
The VT25 is going to be as "accurate" as any other plasma monitor. Take that as you will, but the real truth is no one knows for sure until some of us get these new displays and work on them for a few months.

And yeah, you just beat me to the punch about posting today's VT25 news. Apparently some people are already getting the 50" and 54" in their hands from some Best Buy stores that are near the regional warehouses.

I'm biting the bullet and getting the 50" VT25 and I'm hoping to have it next week now. I'll let everyone know how it goes.

I have seen the VT25 in action at a local Panasonic dealer demo/training thing and they also had a number of them at NAB. They look good. The VT20 model has been available for a month or so now and it looks great too, but lacks the calibration features and the 48 / 96 Hz playback for 24fps material. So I passed on it. The VT20/VT25 are noticeably better looking than the G25 series, otherwise I would have saved myself the $1000 price difference and the wait and just bought one of those.

For right now, I want a larger screen to grade on and I haven't built my new room with a projector setup, so I'm going with the plasma. The only other larger screen solutions I've found that are as good or better all cost 3 to 5 times as much. The 46" JVC LCD studio monitor is probably the best looking LCD panel out there in this size, and possibly any size. They were all over NAB doing 3D too. But I'm not going to pay $9K for it. If I need more serious color grading than what I can do myself on this plasma, I'll take it to a pro colorist. I almost went with the 58" pro plasma, but I've seen it a number of times and to me, the VT25's look better with much better blacks -- newer panel and all. Besides, I don't really have room for the 58", the 50" is actually pushing it in my chosen location. And the 8bit HDMI and $2K SDI input board to get 10bit is a deal breaker for the 58" PF12. For me, anyway.
 
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Here's another update for you guys thinking of getting a Panasonic Pro series plasma. There will in fact be updates to the pro series and they should start taking orders in late August. The 1080p model numbers will be TH-xxPF20U, where xx designates the screen size. Will be able to take the interface modules for SDI, etc.. New HDMI 1.4 boards supporting 10bit/12bit deep color. Looks like 3D will be supported via an add-on module to sync with shutter glasses.

So now I'm faced with the dilemma of taking my 50" VT25 here within the next 10 days or so, or waiting another 5 to 7 months for a PF20... I'm going to take the VT25 because I need something now. I'll look at the new pro panels when they arrive. Damn, this is turning out just like last year -- I bought the 46" G10 to hold me over until they released the 50" PF12, which never happened. Then I gave the G10 away and have nothing right now. Here we go again....
 
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