The difference between a DIT, AC, DAM on set, and do i need them?

[Nick Gardner]

I'm not sure that the term DIT is appropriate for the Red. I think the crew should be the same as a 35mm job.

DP
Operator (should the DP chose not to operate)
1st AC
2nd AC
loader (who now becomes the data management person)
Video village gets managed by the video assist/playback guy

Most of the stuff that a DIT does now on an HD set, is meaningless on the red because it's all just meta-data. They wouldn't be painting the camera, matching cameras, crushing blacks or creating looks. I think one of the big things DITs do is hand holding for film DPs who don't know HD very well, and in that regard maybe they will still be good.

Any actual DITs out there have an opinion on this? I mean, you can't even hook up scopes to the raw image, so do you realy need a Digital Image Technician, or just a data management person?

Just curious what people think, I haven't yet formed a solid opinion.

Nick

 

[Brent J. Craig]

I'm not sure that the term DIT is appropriate for the Red. I think the crew should be the same as a 35mm job.

DP
Operator (should the DP chose not to operate)
1st AC
2nd AC
loader (who now becomes the data management person)

You are absolutely right! Loader is a great title to use. It's probably an easier sell too, because it is a position that most people have heard of. They're just loading cards now.

It works out quite often here that the "Loader" is usually someone with extensive Red experience, so they are useful to have around from that perspective as well.

How about pay grade? Are they the same as a 2nd AC or a Key? It's a pretty critical job that requires skills that are new to our business. Does a straight download job pay less than downloading / color work / playback?

 

[Shawn Booth]

I think DIT should be changed to RED TECH for RED shoots.
Loader should now be OFFLOADER and the Assistant Editor now needs to be on set working with the Offloader.

Everything else should stay the same: 1st AC, 2nd AC are both needed.

My 2 cents...

 

[sparkhope]

kosmos3d,

It sounds like your big production squeezed you out as DIT and tried to replace you with a DAM(kid)...

It's unfortunate. Do you have any feedback from the production? How did it go for them?

The camera is too new to do away with a DIT but honestly as 4k takes off, I believe ACs will become more versed in the technology. It's inevitable after the growing pains the DIT role will be diminished - which by the way is a good thing, it means RED did a great job on the engineering of the camera.

I do agree that while the camera is in its current incarnation a solid DIT is a good idea but we have to believe that Jim & Co. are developing a camera that will not require someone to measure it's temperature. At some point the architecture will be solid and the DIT will be relegated to data wrangling.

Also you mentioned some points about framing, composition, and editable takes. It seems some of those qualitative decisions are probably not up to the DIT to make...I would imagine the Director & DP would periodically walk to the FCP station and review takes to make sure their intentions have been realized.

peace.

 

[sparkhope]

Most of the stuff that a DIT does now on an HD set, is meaningless on the red because it's all just meta-data. They wouldn't be painting the camera, matching cameras, crushing blacks or creating looks... I mean, you can't even hook up scopes to the raw image, so do you realy need a Digital Image Technician, or just a data management person?

Agreed.

 

[Michael Morlan]

Peter Gray does a nice job of listing the duties of the DIT here:

http://www.jkor.com/peter/engineer.html

While the RED doesn't need painting, per se, protecting and duplicating the data off the camera and dialing in looks in REDCine or other more robust tool is a full-time job.

The job is in flux and the U.S. camera union is catching up with the job description.

Michael

 

[Douglas Underdahl]

Jamie - I don't need a 2nd with one cam and a 1st and a DIT. But then, I'm very good.

 

[Nathan Beaman]

"the AC is paying attention to the focus. (period) ""

AC's pay attention to allot more then focus ..

looking over at FILM production ...
AC's keeps a eye on most items on your list...

shutter speed of the camera = DP tells AC what to set it at .. AC then keeps eye on it ...
the f-stop = DP tells AC
the histogram = DP
the format (4k, 4k 2:1, 2k 16:9, 2k 2:1...) = DP tells AC
the project frame rate = DP tells AC
the actual frame rate = DP tell AC ...AC keep eye on it
the color temperature = DP wil tell AC/operator to set at 3200 or 5600K - DP will decide if they do white balances
the client monitors = video village
the zebras = DP will decide if they use it /operator will let DP know
the temperature of the camera = AC /operator
the sound levels on the camera = soundman will let you know /AC/operator
the record light on the camera = AC
the clipping traffic signal = DP
the dropped frames meter =AC /operator
the quality of the codec = DP will decide
the reel number = AC
the camera letter = AC
the media level = AC
the battery level =AC
the timecode sync = AC
the timecode turning to red = AC /operator
the red post message = operator
the actual temp of the body = AC

"I am sorry but an AC can not pay attention to all of this and pull focus, change lenses, check his email on his iPhone, text his girlfriend, text the craft service girl, set the focus motor, add a filter, check the USC Score on his iPhone....."

good AC's can do all of the above & more...

exactly - thats why it is the job on set with the most responsibility.

Besides - what could be more difficult than pulling focus on an anamorphic 1.4?
Ha!

 

[Ed Blythe]

I think DIT should be changed to RED TECH for RED shoots.

Agree with this for this phase of the camera - only been on a couple of these shoots, but it seems like you need someone who understands not just which buttons to push and how to read the HUD, but also which build you're on, what the features/bugs of that build are, what to do if the camera starts playing up, potentially keeping an eye out for shooters using the camera in ways they will come to regret etc.

THEN they need to know the IT stuff - not just have a background in backing up P2 footage (although having that card-to-HDD system is of paramount importance) but also a knowledge of REDware and the current state of 4K workflow (or whatever format). Agree that a DIT job doesn't really involve checking frame and things of that ilk, but Red Tech should be scrolling through footage looking for known probs like skew and black sun (having already had a conversation with the DP to know whether that stuff is classified as a problem for her/him).

As the workflow becomes more solid and more people become savvy with it, the duties may well recede back into the DIT model - but at the moment seems like you need a guy there who knows more about the camera than everybody else based on practical experience, not just web research.

But what the hell do I know. I'm a research guy for another six months.

Oh yeah, and DIT/Red Tech is a reeeeeeeeeal easy sell to a producer: "That's the most important job on set. If it ain't done right, everybody else's work evaporates." I tell ya, it's like they just skulled a whole bucket of prune juice.

 

[chuckt]

You guys are describing extravagant, lavish productions.
If you record directly to a 300GB HD, you do not need a person to constantly downloading data from cards, do you?
Do you need a guy to constantly check the temperature of the camera body, battery level, time code sync etc? Come on, guys. Be realistic.
Most of the time, you just set the camera, compose the scene and let it roll.
Then you only need to keep an eye on the focus, until the scene is chaned.
Only rarely one come across a scene which will be a one-time shot, for example an explosion, where everything has to be perfect.
You do not change lens and read e-mail in the middle of a scene.
You do those things in between scenes.
End of day, you can backup the HD and start reviewing and editing the footage.
How many assistants do you need to do that?
In 35 mm film world, you need many people because Camera is big and cumbersome and you constantly need to carefully handle film.
In digital world, things are different.

 

[sparkhope]

chuckt,

I'm thinking about 200-250k budget. Where it's a drop in the bucket compared to most projects but certainly way more than a student short.

Btw: I wouldn't just roll on a 300GB drive and backup at the end of the day. Losing a day of footage could cost a production 5-10k in location, talent and crew fees.

However I agree I would never try to sell a producer on the notion that he needs a guy to check the camera's temperature....

 

[Dylan Reeve]

[Sales Mode]
This is very much part of the reason we're creating the SolidStore...

There is a tendency for people at all levels of the market to want to save on crew costs or just run light - and have people double- or even triple-tasking. So the AC may also be required to the the DIT/DAM role.

Given the fragility of data in these cases (and that cards are going to get erased/reused) it's important that the offloading of the cards is done well. As long as the data is copied to something and not erased, at least you know that all else can be addressed later.

The idea with the SolidStore is to support a regular DIT workflow (by creating verified redundant copies of all media) but also be an aid in situations where a dedicated crew member is not available by being a 'fire and forget' copy system.
[/Sales Mode]

Personally my experience so far as been as a DIT, which has pretty much only involved file copying, as there has been little or no call on set for ingest, review or playback (although I had those options open). In that role I also tend to find myself also as 2nd AC, which is fine - as the data management and sanity checking is my main job, but I can be productive in other ways too.

I think one dedicated RED Tech/DIT/DAM on most sets will be sufficient, depending on the requirements of the production, but any less means that someone isn't going to have their head all in one role, which is where errors are going to be made.

As for shooting on the drive - yeah it reduces the requirements for offload, but at the same time it increases your exposure to risk. If you fill the drive up totally then you've got a huge amount to lose if anything goes wrong. Even when shooting on the Drive we still try not to fill it more than 30% or so to keep offload time manageable and mitigate any risk of data loss. But that's my personal preference more than anything. I'm a bit paranoid.

 

[Shawn Booth]

I completely disagree with those of you who feel budget determines who is hired for crew in the camera dept. I have worked on features where the HVX was used and we still had a first and a second for each camera. The camera doesn't determine who's needed necessarily. Each position has its purpose.

Secondly, I don't care how good you think you are, AC's are beyond valuable and necessary. Period.

ChuckT - most camera dept.'s consist of 3 people. The loader handles the film and only the loader. The AC's move the camera(s) - and I have never really felt it was cumbersome. The F900 on the other hand has always been a pain in the ass when used as a cinema camera. Cables forever. That's cumbersome.

And as always - IMO.

 

[Ed Blythe]

Agree with statements regarding DIT becoming a bit less critical when you don't need to offload on set - but I think it's safe to say that isn't currently the most popular workflow, and until solid state storage is massive and cheap things will stay that way. And most people will always have their CF cards in the kit anyway, just in case your shooting ratio is bigger than you'd expected or you need a lighter rig.

Disagree that we're only talking about the size of productions here i.e. COST. Two things will stop you finishing your movie: money and TIME. Sometimes (whether it's because there's not enough cash to afford an additional day or because the location is available only for a limited period or going over will screw your turnaround for the next day or whatever) the director's shotlist massively exceeds what can comfortably be executed - but you need to execute it anyway, and that means moving FAST.

Days like that, people don't have time to multi-task so you need enough crew to get shot out in the timeframe. Also more likely that mistakes will happen in that sort of environment because the next thing becomes more important than the last, and you do not have time to just keep shooting until you get it right.

That, and the explosions.

 

[Redrhoads]

I agree that the term DIT should be replaced with something like RED tech / data management. Sure, when you're dealing with tape you don't really need such a person, but when dealing with HVX or RED, the loader translates to this job. The RED tech should also know the firmware limitations, what to do when the cam doesn't fire after a brick change, etc. In very basic terms the DP deals with artistic issues, AC deals with mechanical issues and RED techs deal with technical issues. And no, filmmaking isn't as easy as setting the camera and letting it record occasionally watching focus.

 

[jayfarrington]

Most of the stuff that a DIT does now on an HD set, is meaningless on the red because it's all just meta-data. They wouldn't be painting the camera, matching cameras, crushing blacks or creating looks. I think one of the big things DITs do is hand holding for film DPs who don't know HD very well, and in that regard maybe they will still be good.

Any actual DITs out there have an opinion on this? I mean, you can't even hook up scopes to the raw image, so do you realy need a Digital Image Technician, or just a data management person?

Just curious what people think, I haven't yet formed a solid opinion.

Nick

_____________________________

Just like any other job that gets called in, budget will determine everything. If the pace and budget allow for full control via engineering tools for your F900R or Varicam shoot, you'll get a DIT and save time, frustration, get another hand in the camera department, and be able to customize your look in the field before a bulk of the color information is thrown away and an 8 bit signal is left on the tape for post.

If the budget is tight, but the parameters still call for an F900R or a Varicam - those kits will go out with a minimal crew and without any of the above. And it can still go swimmingly, but there will be less help around, period.

Does a Red shoot require a DIT like me? Not specifically. But do current DITs have a useful skill set for a Red shoot? Absolutely. We're menu and data manipulators, always have been. We're used to having to paint and shade images to realize the director and DPs vision to the extent that the format allows. Is that useful for on set one light corrections/previews of possible looks? Sure.

And DITs are used to hand holding producers, post people, DPs, and being a major asset to the 1st AC on set. I'm confirming focus for the camera department on my monitor during takes and looking for problems within the frame that others paying attention to content and their own jobs will surely miss. I calibrate, schlep, and route monitors on the set and interface with the playback/video village dept. Not a lot of that is going to change.

My paintbox and scope will go away, but will be replaced with a laptop/tower setup. My color grade monitor may diminish in use, but my focus critical monitors will be working plenty.

Or the budget won't be there for any of that and I'll just rent out the basics to a much smaller crew and they'll still plow forward and make great images! Happens all the time with every camera I own. There's no right or wrong, it's just going to be a matter of how much money is available for you to have as much help around as you can afford.

 

[gbalaji]

People are more important than Technology

People are more important than Technology

After going through the discussion, I feel people are more important than any Technology.

I believe we need to have a strong team of DIT / DAM / RED Tech for shoot along with Camera Department irrespective of budget. Its more important to spend careful time on shoot for smaller budget films than bigger budget feature, which has luxury of reshoot days.

We need to follow the same discipline in terms of shooting on RED like we done for FILM.

RED TECH is must for shoot.

 

[dino g]

kosmos3d,

It sounds like your big production squeezed you out as DIT and tried to replace you with a DAM(kid)...

It's unfortunate. Do you have any feedback from the production? How did it go for them?

sparkhope:

you may have misunderstood what i wrote.

I did not loose a job or get squeezed out, i just happened to be somewhere for another purpose and while at this place, a red shoot happened. so i stuck around to watch, but ended up getting pulled in because the AC was focused on AC stuff and i saw a hole in what was going on, so i filled it but it bothered me later, so i wrote this post, expressing my disagreement with that particular AC and anyone in general that devalues the job of a RED TECH/ RED DIT/ DAM/ DATABitch, RED GUY, RED OWNER, whatever you want to call it, it is important to have a dedicated person focusing on the camera while it shoots and then the data after it has been shot.

 

[ChristopherKenworthy]

We've found that we need a 1st AC and a 2nd AC around the camera. We've also got a clapper person, operator and a couple of other techie assistants keeping an eye on the camera. We have extra runners to take care of the mags as they come of the camera and ship them to the Digital Asset Manager. We were going to get a young, casual DAM, but ended up hiring somebody with a variety of computer, photographic and other skills, including the ability to work under pressure. She checks file integrity, and checks the rushes on set, for focus or other problems. A real life-saver.

We also have various sanity checks along the way, to ensure that all three on-set backups are copied to all three RAID arrays (at different locations) without a single bit being lost, by three Digital Asset Assistants. When you're spending a fortune on a film, it's the only way. When you're spending only time and effort, I still think this is the habit everybody should get into. We have rushes we can edit each night, just a couple of hours after we wrap, and that's making a huge difference.

So, using the Red hasn't enabled us to shrink the crew at all, but that doesn't matter to us one bit.

 

[Wes Printz]

WOW!!! And everyone was saying Digital Cinematography is going to be so much easier... and cheaper, we don't have to buy film.. But DAM, if your AC was a DIT, you'd have it made.

Great Thread!!

Now, let's get back to this craft service girl...