The Cold in Canada

[Finner]

But that's a tape drive issue. Below 0C the tape starts to have breakage problems, you have similar issues with film.

I have worked for many many years with mainly film and more recently in the last few years sony and panasonic tape HD cameras. At times below -40C and never had either break. Shot a SABB commercial off a russian arm on a frozen lake below -35C plus extreme winds and wind chill no breakage. I have had sound sync cameras sound like john deer tractors from the cold but never breakage. The odd time when really cold a 435 mag loop will snap on reload when the 1st trys to get it around the movement but that camera puts a lot more stress on film durring reload then most every other camera.

I am very interested to hear how the shoot goes for Colin in Saskatchewan tomorrow. Lets wait and see. Really though I have run into very few problems with film or tape cameras in temperatures of -30C or warmer and I feel red should run operate the same way.

 

[RCFisher]

Tape and Film have always been problems at the temperature extremes. I had tape melt to the heads at about 110F, very low humidity. But I think it was the lubricant that sony uses on their tape that was the problem, all tape has some kind of lubricant and that will gum up mechanisms badly. I have also had tape be so brittle that it breaks below 10F. I have also had shoots go smoothly even at -10F shooting high speed, batteries on the other hand are always an issue below 40F.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

...Never had an F900 out in the elements, so I can't comment. Although, that would surprise me if it really failed at -5C, in fact I'm thinking it was due to something else than simply the cold. I see various Sony cameras like XDCAM models like the F350 and even F950's, F900's in use at sporting events and by broadcast crews around here in colder temps than that... Often with no wraps or protection on it unless they're expecting bad weather. It's routine. Varicam has worked for me down to -15F without any means to warm it (kept batteries warm in a thermal bag with other stuff). It probably could have worked in colder temps than that, but that's as cold as it's ever been while I was using one. HVX200 and DVX100 have performed flawless for me at -25F. I did have a few problems with the HVX200 one day when it was -24F with gusty winds. Winds would pick up and the wind-chill would drop surface temperatures -- I had the LCD start to freeze up on me, but that was it. XL-1 worked for me in the cold too, I did lose a tape mechanism on an XL-1 and had to send it in for service. But I don't know if it was due to the cold or if it just failed. I will be using an HPX500 on monday and tuesday and temps should be around -15F early in the mornings at this location, I'll see how that goes, but I'm not expecting any problems. I'll bring hot packs just in case.

It's 8F (-13C) at my house right now, I'm not even up in the mountains, the warmest it got today was 17F (-8C), not anything unusual for December in Colorado when a bit of snow passes through (but neither is 60F (15C) or anything in between. Any halfway decent consumer or prosumer camera works without a hitch in this sort of cold or it gets returned to the store by irate customers. Any pro camera that can't handle this would be considered by people around here to be a complete P.O.S. and would never receive approval by any network affiliates in this town.

 

[Isaac Babcock]

I'm glad to see this question brought back up, it is definitely my #1 concern. In the past year I've worked with Sony 730, Varicam, and Canon XL/XH-1's in the backcountry, -40 F + wind for extended periods, no problems (except to my toes). Next winter I'm hoping to shoot with my RED, but that is contingent on its ability in the cold. My cameras live in the cold in the winter, and at night they are in the tent. There isn't any "run to the truck and warm it up".

From a similar thread last month:

Turning the fan off... or putting it into "Silent" mode should do the trick as Sharky suggests. We are doing some testing now to see if we can offer some other suggestions....

Jim

Did anything come of this testing? (I know you've been busy with a ton of things, lens mounts, sound,getting camera's ready, etc).

Does "Silent" mode turn off the fan completely, or only turn the fan off when the camera is recording. When I saw the camera in October (Stuart's and Gibby's) I think it was the latter. Would being able to turn off the fan completely in the cold benefit the camera operation (and battery life?). Maybe it has been updated? Someone who actually has a camera please chime in.

I'm thrilled with most everything I know about the camera- just two big questions: 1) Will it work below -20 F, and 2) can we get a sleep/standby button for fast wake up and shooting...(but that can wait for another thread...)

Anyone brave enough to take their red in a freezer room for a few hours and do some testing?

 

[reality]

But that's a tape drive issue.

The live feed had problems.

F23 is also rated to 0C.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Yeah, you guys have to search the forum for some of these answers. These are concerns that have been addressed to death within the forum over the past year, and there are ample solutions to the "problem." I don't own a camera either, but I'm damn sure going to know everything I can about it before the time comes when I'll be shooting it.

Most of the answers are already here. You just have to look a little.

No it hasn't. It's barely been discussed at all. I've been pestering for the last 2 years for answers (before the camera had even left the bread box) and the answer has always been. "We can't comment yet on temperature ratings." The cameras came out I asked again. "No problems." Then people start sending in comments that it's not reliable in extreme cold and that they're having to keep it in a truck and cover it with space blankets but Jim says "weather stripping fixed all the problems".

Weather stripping and firmware updates are definitely steps that will keep it filming once it's warm but the question "Can you cold start a red in -25C weather?" to me is 100% unanswered as of yet. And trust me... between finner, jeff and myself we've probably read a few posts on these here forums.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

And trust me... between finner, jeff and myself we've probably read a few posts on these here forums.

-

No...

You didn't have time... -

Curious about this, too.

I plan to take a camera, mine or a rental - up to Tromsø (the North of Norway) to shoot outdoors for a week in the end of January. Probably the coldest part of the year in one of the colder spots of the world.

A bit curious, too.

Gunleik

 

[SIRAJ KUMKHE]

oh Guy's you are let me thinking to open a thread with name
The Hot in UAE:nerd:

 

[Craig Schober]

cold vs. super cold

cold vs. super cold

No it hasn't. It's barely been discussed at all. I've been pestering for the last 2 years for answers (before the camera had even left the bread box) and the answer has always been. "We can't comment yet on temperature ratings." The cameras came out I asked again. "No problems." Then people start sending in comments that it's not reliable in extreme cold and that they're having to keep it in a truck and cover it with space blankets but Jim says "weather stripping fixed all the problems".

Weather stripping and firmware updates are definitely steps that will keep it filming once it's warm but the question "Can you cold start a red in -25C weather?" to me is 100% unanswered as of yet. And trust me... between finner, jeff and myself we've probably read a few posts on these here forums.

i think this thread is confusing two different issues: does red perform consistently in average cold weather and does red perform consistently in very cold weather?

between red's and owner field testing, i think we can safely say that the camera operates nicely in cold weather (average winter temps). now when you start talking about -30 c kind of weather, of course you have to take precautions and prepare for such conditions as they represent about 1% of all shooting. you cannot expect this camera and any battery systems to function perfectly without warming measures prior or during shooting. and remember, this is a beta camera so who knows if the red team has even run a full temperature chamber testing yet. they certainly haven't had their own cold weather at red hq to test it that way. i think the guys facing the coldest winters this year are the guinea pigs just like soderbergh was the first guinea pig for hot, humid weather. valuable user testimonial reports on this forum will deliver more information than red is capable of giving us anyway.

 

[Michael Brennan]

compare to sony

compare to sony

No it hasn't. It's barely been discussed at all. I've been pestering for the last 2 years for answers (before the camera had even left the bread box) and the answer has always been. "We can't comment yet on temperature ratings." The cameras came out I asked again. "No problems." Then people start sending in comments that it's not reliable in extreme cold and that they're having to keep it in a truck and cover it with space blankets but Jim says "weather stripping fixed all the problems".

Not aimed at anyone in particular
It will take many hours if use in the field over the next 8-12 months for the camera to develop a reputation for how it copes with dust heat cold, vibration, shock and RF.
Picture perfomance is pretty easy to define compared to getting to the bottom of location failures.
Time will filter out the operator errors and other misinformation that propogrates when things go bad on location.


Expecting a meaningful answer regarding durability ect from the manufacturer a few months after the camera is released in beta form is naive and given there is a hardware and software change yet to hit the Artic or the Sahara even more so!

Sony have rated all their cameras 0C to 40C. for legal reasons.
The reputation of Sony broadcast camcorders, evolved from 15 years of pro use, is that in the hands of craft cameramen they will usually work anywhere on the planet in extremes of temperature.

RED in principle should be able to offer the same performance or even exceed it due to solid state recording, but it has to earn its stripes at the coal face. Based on their engineering website I'd estimate that Sony, in the past 15 years have made over 500 tweakes to pro production cameras to solve problems encountered in the field.

So there is a wealth of knowledge inherited (and sometimes not!) to new Sony designs.

Expecting RED to have similar shock RF dust temp performance from day one is optimistic.
But REDs willingness to solve issues is 20x greater than Sony so minor problems should be dealt with quickly.


Mike Brennan

 

[Charles Perkins]

I'm living in switzerland at the moment, and i should still be here when i receive my camera, the temperature at the top of the mountain got down to -28C with the wind chill. i only really work in the mountains so the camera being able to work in the cold is a major factor. if it doesn't work consistently, i'll either return it or sell it.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

i think this thread is confusing two different issues: does red perform consistently in average cold weather and does red perform consistently in very cold weather?

Er... How do you define "average cold weather" or "very cold weather". It's all relative based on location and peoples' perception. To me, the thought of a camera not being able to cold start and function at -5C / 23F just as it would at 10C / 50F is completely unacceptable. But like I said, levels of cold are all subjective. I don't consider the outdoor temp to be "cold" until it's about -10C / 15F. OTOH, my cousin who lives in Hawaii will break out the ski parka and think it's freezing when it's 45F.

I don't know what people are saying about the Sony cameras not being rated below freezing. I'l check with the local Sony rep tomorrow, but I think that has to be incorrect, or no one would ever buy or use them around here.

between red's and owner field testing, i think we can safely say that the camera operates nicely in cold weather (average winter temps).

But we have not seen a cold weather temp rating from RED. We have no indication of their test data, if there is any, or what is being done to determine how RED operates in the cold. We have only been given the "winter strip" statement. I've seen a couple user reports of the cameras malfunctioning, even with these cold weather strips in place, at temperatures that qualify as light jacket weather around here. To me, that is not good. I guess what I'm looking for is some hard data and / or definitive statement from RED on just what the cold tolerances of the RED One are. And how best to handle shooting in cold environments where the air intake strips are not enough. Will the camera give us any sort of temperature reading or indication that it's too cold?

now when you start talking about -30 c kind of weather, of course you have to take precautions and prepare for such conditions as they represent about 1% of all shooting.

Yes, -30C (-22F) is rather cold, by most anyone's standards. And yes, precautions do need to be taken at such temperatures, no matter what type of gear you're using. But you might want to reconsider that 1% statement. Camera systems are used in extreme cold far more than I think a lot of people realize.

you cannot expect this camera and any battery systems to function perfectly without warming measures prior or during shooting.

Why? As long as the batteries are kept from freezing, it shouldn't be an issue. ...Hasn't been an issue for the other cameras I use.

this is a beta camera so who knows if the red team has even run a full temperature chamber testing yet. they certainly haven't had their own cold weather at red hq to test it that way.

My thoughts exactly. Which does concern me if this is so...

i think the guys facing the coldest winters this year are the guinea pigs just like soderbergh was the first guinea pig for hot, humid weather. valuable user testimonial reports on this forum will deliver more information than red is capable of giving us anyway.

We have #519 coming here, probably late January, and our first planned shoot is going to be in the cold. I guess we'll find out how well it works. #'s 106 & 107 go to 42 Productions in Boulder, but I don't have any idea what they have planned for them. I'd like to get a RED into the hands of Warren Miller's crew to see how it holds up for extreme mountaineering and ski/snowboard production.

 

[Daniel Reichenbach]

I'll tell you how RED will deal with the cold, I will shoot some snow/ski/snowboard stuff in the glaciers of switzerland in January...

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I'm not asking for the legal "sue us if it fails below this temperature" ratings. If RED has developed a reputation for anything it's giving wrecklessly legally liable statements about what they and their camera can do and I say that in the most complimentary interpretation possible. They passed the point where any sound legal council would have told their client to shut up and hide long long ago. Red is possibly one of the most wreckless companies I know of which is the reason why they can innovate so quickly. "Just do it and we'll deal with the consequences later if there's a problem" seems to be company mantra. Which is something I can completely respect.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Thermo-nuclear protection

Thermo-nuclear protection

It may not be easy to implement, but I love the idea of a temperature gauge instead of an idiot light. It sure would be easier to do thermal management if we knew what the internal temp was...

 

[Chris Kenny]

One should distinguish between "will the camera start at X temperature" and "will the camera operate at X temperature".

Ongoing operation probably isn't going to be a problem at low temperatures. With perfect insulation, the entire camera body should eventually rise to the temperature of the hottest component of the camera (which I'm guessing is the ASIC that does video encoding/decoding). Well, perfect insulation isn't possible, but very good insulation should be, and there's some margin for heat loss, since the camera's hottest components evidently run hotter than the camera's preferred operating temperature (otherwise there would be little point in giving the thing cooling fans). So, even if the camera can't operate at very low temperatures with just some strips to cover the vents, it should be possible to operate it at low temperatures with some sort of jacket, without heating packs, etc. Probably much more so than with a film camera, because the high-performance electronics in a Red probably generate more heat than the motor and other components in a film camera, particularly if you consider that they operate to some extent even when the camera isn't rolling.

The big question is going to be whether you can start the camera when the whole body (and the batteries) are at -35C. That seems significantly more iffy, and will probably mostly come down to the power system.

 

[Nils Ruinet]

It may not be easy to implement, but I love the idea of a temperature gauge instead of an idiot light. It sure would be easier to do thermal management if we knew what the internal temp was...

Isn't there already a temperature gauge inside the Red body ?

Or how would the variable fan mode work otherwise ?
"In variable mode, the fan runs at a continuously variable speed in both preview and record. At low ambient temperatures the fan will run at minimum speed. At higher ambient temperature, the fan will run at an increased speed that is sufficient to maintain the camera body within the factory set temperature limits."

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Well I would say batteries aren't much of a problem. They're a "known" quantity. I can keep a power brick in a thermal bag with a hand warmer all day and night very very easily.

 

[Paul Watt]

cold?

cold?

I think Mack Dawg has a couple on the way. I'd respect their opinion more than any one else's on this issue. The old Bolex SBM Super 16 is still what I'll use in the cold for one more season. The Red has to be totally fine in -15 C without any warm-up in order to be useful to me, I'm afraid. I'm sure it will be by next year.

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

I would be more than happy to be a major test case for shooting in the cold. Our feature will shoot in the last week of January and into February outside of Montreal...but my Red won't be here in time. We have a five week shoot and it is a winter film with plenty of exteriors in day and night.

So if someone in Canada with a unit is interested, please let me know if your unit is available. Of course I will likely have to source two camera bodies because we definitely cannot afford down time due to boot up/start up and/or recording issues (though I would expect if it can actually record, it will be fine). Keep in mind we are a low budget film and have access to 5 F900's for free with prime lens sets...but with guaranteed theatrical I don't want to compromise by using a lesser camera.

FYI, the average cold over the last couple of weeks up here has been -20 C not including windchill. As of Saturday we had -37 with windchill, and we're not even into January yet. We've had success with shooting F900's and Varicams in such extremes (useful hint -always keep the camera on and keep a hairdryer on the dolly).