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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The Camera's incredible! The Workflow documentation Sucks!

P

Paul Didier Mogg

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As a very recent recipient of a brand new RED camera I'd just like to say what a beautiful piece of machinery it is, capable of producing jaw-dropping images, for an unbelievable price. It opens up high quality movie-making possibilities to so many more people. This has all been said before, but what an incredible achievement by Jim and the RED team, thank you so much.

However, as a newcomer I'd also like to express my deep frustration with the documentation for the workflow, where is it? Why isn't such a groundbreaking camera supported by equally groundbreaking documentation? Or how about just an overview for newcomers as to why there are there are so many different applications for processing the footage, what each one does, why their functionality seems to overlap, and what each button does?

It seems to me that every person who buys this camera has to spend days and weeks, as I have already, sifting through hundreds of pages of these forums, trying to glean information that is already known, on how they should go about working with the footage or individual programs. ...and this happens over and over again.

I fully understand that this is a work in progress and that many of these programs are still in Beta, but PLEASE just have a RED written documentation section to this forum giving us at least what the latest information is that you know about, an overview, and the bugs you know about or even just suspect. You are so open about everything else, why not this?

I cannot believe that it would not be totally in RED's interest to dedicate one person full time to this task, especially as more and more of these wonderful cameras ship. ...and you'd have so much happier little camera owners!

All the best,

Paul
 
Dude...

Arri doesn't put Post work flows in any of there operating manuals. Just looked.
nor does Panovision, Aaton... canon, panasonic, JVC, Sony.

Work flow for RED is piss easy.
The easiest way to get going is to put the (1k) (M) QT proxie movies your new camera generates into a FCP time line sequence and simply press play. Use the 2k (h) movies if you have a computer with some grunt.
Make sure your sequence timeline is set to unlimited RT and video playback to low.

If you like what you just edited... then Press RENDER and save your brand new Apple PRO RES 10 bit movie to your desktop or where ever.

Your project is done.

There are 6 different ways to end up with the same thing.
There longs ways and short ways... Unfortunately a lot of people are doing it the long way.

Take a breath, it's so easy that my kids are doing it on there Mac's and one of them is only 11.
 
I liken this (to an extent) like when P2 came out. Lots of people thought it was hard, confusing, etc. (some people still do). I think once RED gets a bit more out there, all the gripes about the post side will subside, just like they did with P2 workflow.

Big T -

That is quite easy!

Kristina
 
There's heaps of info on this site. And yes, there are many different ways to do the same thing, but that part of what makes it a great camera. You can really do a lot with a small budget and you have a lot of flexibility in which way you want to do it. You'll have to expect to take some time, runs some test, and figure it all out (just as you would with any other camera-its just, this one might be a little different) but it will definitely pay off in the end. You won't be disappointed.
 
Big T said:
Dude...

Arri doesn't put Post work flows in any of there operating manuals. Just looked.
nor does Panovision, Aaton... canon, panasonic, JVC, Sony.

Work flow for RED is piss easy.
The easiest way to get going is to put the (1k) (M) QT proxie movies your new camera generates into a FCP time line sequence and simply press play. Use the 2k (h) movies if you have a computer with some grunt.
Make sure you sequence timeline is set to unlimited RT and video playback to low.

If you like what you just edited... then Press RENDER and save your brand new Apple PRO RES 10 bit movie to your desktop or where ever.

Your project is done.

There are 6 different ways to end up with the same thing.
There longs ways and short ways... Unfortunately a lot of people are doing it the long way.

Take a breath, it's so easy that my kids are doing it on there Mac's and one of them is only 11.
Click to expand...

Big T - I love this - I am going to start sending it to editorial houses when they say "Oh your shooting on RED? Just give us a tape!".

Very funny.
 
Moggy said:
As a very recent recipient of a brand new RED camera I'd just like to say what a beautiful piece of machinery it is, capable of producing jaw-dropping images, for an unbelievable price. It opens up high quality movie-making possibilities to so many more people. This has all been said before, but what an incredible achievement by Jim and the RED team, thank you so much.

However, as a newcomer I'd also like to express my deep frustration with the documentation for the workflow, where is it? Why isn't such a groundbreaking camera supported by equally groundbreaking documentation? Or how about just an overview for newcomers as to why there are there are so many different applications for processing the footage, what each one does, why their functionality seems to overlap, and what each button does?

It seems to me that every person who buys this camera has to spend days and weeks, as I have already, sifting through hundreds of pages of these forums, trying to glean information that is already known, on how they should go about working with the footage or individual programs. ...and this happens over and over again.

I fully understand that this is a work in progress and that many of these programs are still in Beta, but PLEASE just have a RED written documentation section to this forum giving us at least what the latest information is that you know about, an overview, and the bugs you know about or even just suspect. You are so open about everything else, why not this?

I cannot believe that it would not be totally in RED's interest to dedicate one person full time to this task, especially as more and more of these wonderful cameras ship. ...and you'd have so much happier little camera owners!

All the best,

Paul
Click to expand...

...and why no one has published a book yet...amazing.

It must be because things are changing day to day. Once the dust settles (a little!) I am sure we will see a book that covers it all!
 
I actually agree with Big T that the workflow can be "piss easy", and it's wonderful to have the choices. But in order to discover that simple "piss easy" workflow he mentions I had to sift through tons of other much much more lengthy workflows such as "crimson workflow" which is obviously geared towards getting the absolute best image achievable with the system if going to film or TV, along with a ton of very outdated info.
If you're just shooting events that require a quick turnaround and little editing, just editing the _M proxy timelines in FCP and outputting to ProRes from there appears to be one way to go. But does a render done this way produce the same output quality derived directly from the .R3D files as converting to ProRes upfront using RedAlert, and editing that? ...and if so why is it 5 times quicker to render the ProRes from the FCP timeline than in RedAlert?
My point is that to get answers to questions like these, that are probably already known to many people and have probably been hashed out a dozen times, I have to post here and hope that some kind sole will take pity. Whereas if some resources were put into condensing all this valuable information somewhere and keeping it updated, a lot of camera owners would save a ton of time, ...and you'd sell more cameras because it would be so easy to decide which was the right workflow for your type of project.
I personally think that this forum is just as valuable as the camera itself, with the Ikegami I used to own it was like pulling teeth to get any information at all, so maybe I shouldn't even raise a note of complaint.
But why not complete this unbelievable camera package with a great information resource and documentation? It seems like such a small step to take after coming so far. Seems to me it would be hugely beneficial to RED and make one less target for those who like to put down the camera, maybe their only remaining target.

Cheers,

Paul

p.s. I hope you can't get thrown off this forum for saying "piss easy" too many times, is that regarded as swearing in the US?
 
Moggy said:
But does a render done this way produce the same output quality derived directly from the .R3D files as converting to ProRes upfront using RedAlert, and editing that? ...and if so why is it 5 times quicker to render the ProRes from the FCP timeline than in RedAlert?
Click to expand...

that's what I'd like to know
 
I've had the camera for months and foolishly have been outputting Prores HQ 10 bit from RedAlert. Lately been using RedRushes.
I didn't realize that dropping in the proxies to FCS2, editing and hitting render would give the same output as Big T describes?! The proxies have been so dark and clunky I have avoided using them.
I'll have to try that tonight...so I assume when you hit render then it gives you the options for quality of debayer, metadata, output lut and color space options before rendering to prores (just like Redalert)? I always assumed it just converted the quicktimes...
Even after daily sifting the forums I don't know how I missed that one.
Thanks for the tip assuming it in fact is the same as outputting the .R3D from RedAlert.
 
Big T said:
Dude...

Arri doesn't put Post work flows in any of there operating manuals. Just looked.
nor does Panovision, Aaton... canon, panasonic, JVC, Sony.
Click to expand...

This is an incredibly unfair comparison! And actually untrue!

Arri and Aaton don't post workflows because their shooting format is not a brand new proprietary codec. It's an industry standard exclusive of their camera.

Sony certainly does publish workflows, and actually Sony built several systems to match their cameras. Panasonic and Canon introduced new cameras but with mostly existing workflows. i.e. DVC Pro on FCP and HDV which was quickly supported by Apple.

Red invented a brand new format out of thin air that couldn't be used on ANYTHING that currently existed. But you think they are not responsible to guide or be helpful in post?

Hey, here's a car that uses a special gas that has yet to be invented, but you're on your own as to who will or when invent it.

Yes I'm exaggerating a lot, and Red has certainly been very helpful in building tools and trying to get others to embrace their format, but RedRaw is not anything else. Yes that's good, but it can't live in it's own little vacuum with its fingers in it's ears.

I don't know why people that understand the current workflows are often so mean and condescending to people that don't yet understand. Is it really unfair to think that a set of white papers, even steadily evolving ones, are too much to ask.

I know lots of very bright people that are slow to grasp this new paradigm. I don't for a second look down at them.

Cheers,
Chris
 
Using RedAlert / RedCine set to full deabayer = best result.

Using the proxies = offline result. Proxies are, as the name indicates, just a representative of the real thing. In this context their debayer algorithm is designed for speed and not quality. Hence the RT playback.

Crimson workflow is desigend to conform a timeline from FCP (and back) for high quality rendering using RedCine or RedLine (RedAlerts render engine).

If you are happy with the result the proxies deliver, fine.

Hans
 
KnockOutFilms said:
Red invented a brand new format out of thin air that couldn't be used on ANYTHING that currently existed. But you think they are not responsible to guide or be helpful in post?
Cheers,
Chris
Click to expand...

Excuse me ? What are you really saying here by cant be used by anything currently existed ?
 
Hmmm, ok so this perfectly illustrates what I'm talking about. Two different opinions on whether exporting ProRes from an FCP proxy timeline gives you highest quality or not. A basic question that surely everyone who is editing with RED at any level needs to understand, and these are people have been using the camera for a while. I've only had mine for a week.
So what's the right answer? I bet someone at RED knows. Bueller? ....Bueller?
 
Brian Broz said:
I've had the camera for months and foolishly have been outputting Prores HQ 10 bit from RedAlert. Lately been using RedRushes.
I didn't realize that dropping in the proxies to FCS2, editing and hitting render would give the same output as Big T describes?! .
Click to expand...

That´s exactly what I was wondering about today, having my brand new RED in my office now. I´m very interested in your results, Brian !!!
 
You just have to use the force. Or you can Zen the workflow.
 
Rivai said:
Excuse me ? What are you really saying here by cant be used by anything currently existed ?
Click to expand...

I was making the point that Red invented an new shooting format that was not supported by anything that currently existed vs other camera makers that used existing formats that were already supported by existing post workflows.

It wasn't meant to be a negative against Red, but just a statement of fact. But inherent in creating a new shooting format is the need to make sure that it can somehow be supported. Red created tools to convert their new format into a different, but supported codec. That was important, as they couldn't build the camera and wait for other vendors to create the tools.

I'm not saying Red hasn't done what's required, but I take some small exception to the comparison that since Arri doesn't publish film workflows, Red shouldn't need to publish their camera's workflow. It's oranges and Red apples. Arri didn't invent a new shooting format, they build a camera that used an existing one.

Cheers,
Chris
 
Brian Broz said:
I've had the camera for months and foolishly have been outputting Prores HQ 10 bit from RedAlert. Lately been using RedRushes.
I didn't realize that dropping in the proxies to FCS2, editing and hitting render would give the same output as Big T describes?! The proxies have been so dark and clunky I have avoided using them.
I'll have to try that tonight...so I assume when you hit render then it gives you the options for quality of debayer, metadata, output lut and color space options before rendering to prores (just like Redalert)? I always assumed it just converted the quicktimes...
Even after daily sifting the forums I don't know how I missed that one.
Thanks for the tip assuming it in fact is the same as outputting the .R3D from RedAlert.
Click to expand...

I always thought it wasn't the same quality and that a render from Red Alert was better as any image adjustments got baked in at point where there was more information in the image?

Cheers,
Chris
 
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