Testing new native RF mount 1.8x Anamorpic lens

[J. Orlandi]

UPDATE ** Now taking orders! https://evereststudios.square.site/product/vazen-40mm-t2-0-anamorphic-1-8x-rf-mount-lens/207?cs=true **

So I'm an authorized dealer for Vazen and I've been working close with them to help us get more affordable options for anamorphic lenses for Komodo users...

Right now I'm testing a native RF version of their M4/3 1.8x 40mm T2.0 - This is priced way below their new Full Frame 85mm T2.8 PL lens, so it will be hugely welcome for our use, however there is no official prices released yet for this or time for availability. As a dealer I'll be checking the market to see who will be interested in purchasing these. Eventually I'm sure we will take pre-orders of them. Till then testing will be ongoing.

This is a prototype so there are some limitations, however I can give you guys some interesting specs:

1. Same optics as their MFT mount 1.8x 40mm T2.0 lens
3. It is almost identical in size and weight to the MFT mount version as well
5. The image circle DOES cover Komodo in 6K 17:9 once you crop the sides off of the image for a 4:3 proper de-squeeze to 2.39:1. There is a TINY amount of acceptable vignetting on the extreme corners once de-squeezed, however if you go to 6K 16:9 this goes away completely.
7. The prototype I have currently does not have an iris mechanism, so it's "wide open" if not slightly more... So making it currently a T1.8 (ish) lens, but this does effect sharpness a bit and is not representative of a final T2.0 with proper iris.
9. This prototype has a 3D printed and machined white plastic half, so it needs to be covered with light blocking materials in order to use correctly or the bleed through from the plastic with allow some odd effects. We are modding this prototype and covering it with 100% light blocking tape, so we can do full testing without issues with the image. So in the photos you'll notice the lens is covered until I have modified it.

This is all EXCELLENT news. I've spoken to RED directly about getting an anamorphic beta for 6K 4:3 with 1.8x and 2x options and unfortunately one isn't available yet. But I'll keep on it. To view live de-squeezed and cropped image I used a CineEye wireless transmitter to iPad Pro 12.9". Their wireless software has both 1.8x de-squeeze and a crop-to-cut off the sides. This gives you a view of a perfect image without distracting side info that wont be in the final image.

I'll be testing what I can with this lens and report on this thread my findings.

IMG_6491

IMG_6511

IMG_6489

 

[J. Orlandi]

Below are the first round of tests for lens coverage for its image circle...

Here's how the test was performed. A white piece of opaque plastic was placed directly in front of the front element of the lens. A bright light was shined from 8 feet away casting an even illumination across the plastic, giving a solid white image to photograph with the Vazen lens.

The komodo was set to 3 different settings. 6K 17:9, 6K HD (16:9), and 5K 17:9 These images were recorded to the komodo at HQ. The lens was racked from infinity to close focus for each test.

The "worst" coverage part of the image from each test was used for coverage... Example: Vazen 40mm breaths a bit and so I used the most extreme end of whatever the breathing was to show the worst case scenario of coverage.


The raw images were imported into FinalCut Pro X with a custom timeline according to 8K DCP size which keeps the exact Komodo image height for 6K 17:9 which is 3240 and the anamorphic 1.8x stretch to 7680x3240.

Within the timeline I applied a 180% stretch to the X axis to de-squeeze the anamorphic image 1.8x. The frame was then exported directly out of FCPX using "export frame" directly from timeline.

These frames below were the result after proper cropping and the before below that. As you can see below the coverage is perfectly acceptable for a regular 2.39:1 de-squeeze and crop for theatrical use with the Vazen 40mm T2.0. There is the tiniest bit of darkening at the extreme corners of the 6K 17:9 frame, but not easily seen. So if red implements a simple 4:3 6K mode which just crops off the sides of full image, the coverage is covered just fine and makes an excellent lens for Komodo and other s35mm sensors. I'm talking to Vazen about also adding a Sony E Mount option as well which opens this lens up to many many more cameras on the market with Super 35mm sensors. And finally a 65mm version of this lens is on its way as well, with a similar build size and quality to the 40mm T2.0.

DE-SQUEEZED IMAGES for 2.39:1 DCI standard

8K timeline ana 1-8x 6K 17-9

8K timeline ana 1-8x 6K 16-9

8K timeline ana 1-8x 5K 17-9

RAW IMAGES BEFORE DE-SQUEEZE:

6K 17:9 raw coverage
A003_A010_09094Y

6K HD (16:9) raw coverage
A003_A009_0909MA

5K 17:9 raw coverage
A003_A011_0909SC

 

[Jordan Anthony Dudek]

Very excited to see the progression of this. You can count me in as being interested in an RF mount for the Vazen anamorphics! Both the 40mm and 65mm

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

This is super cool. Would love to see where this goes.

Have you been able to find any RF to MFT mounts? Or is this your 3D print to try and fill the void?

 

[J. Orlandi]

Very excited to see the progression of this. You can count me in as being interested in an RF mount for the Vazen anamorphics! Both the 40mm and 65mm

Excellent, will do!

This is super cool. Would love to see where this goes.

Have you been able to find any RF to MFT mounts? Or is this your 3D print to try and fill the void?

unfortunately there is no physical possibility of an RF to MFT mount adapter. The flange difference is Negative 0.3mm. This is a 3D printed prototype the engineers at Vazen has sent me to test and provide with feedback and check / gauge public interest. There are some issues with this 3D print, so another prototype will be worked on as well until we get it right.

So far you can expect the exact same image quality, sharpness, etc from the production MFT 40mm T2.0, which is great. It's just a simple redesign of the rear mechanical attachment of the lens to remove 3mm while maintaining the flange distance.

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

So native RF instead of RF to MFT. No idea when this could be more widely available? I have an action film I’m directing in South Africa in November/December, depending on when the country opens up for international travel. We want to shoot anamorphic and I have a Ranger Helium as well as a Komodo Stormtrooper. if you have anything we can play with by then, we would definitely be down to test.

 

[J. Orlandi]

So native RF instead of RF to MFT. No idea when this could be more widely available? I have an action film I’m directing in South Africa in November/December, depending on when the country opens up for international travel. We want to shoot anamorphic and I have a Ranger Helium as well as a Komodo Stormtrooper. if you have anything we can play with by then, we would definitely be down to test.

We just might be able to have them for sale by then. We are talking every day with Vazen to get a timeline, and will update when we are able to start pre-orders!

 

[Bruce Allen]

Niiiice!

BTW since you're in good communication with Vazen, I'm hoping someone can pass the hint to Vazen that the first company to offer a FULL set of anamorphic focal lengths for a good price, with good image quality wins.

I know I'm probably preaching to the choir here... but I am watching their stuff with interest but need a proper 5-lens set! Or at the very least a roadmap for one.

Orion lenses are doing very well, for precisely the reason that they have a clear roadmap and are offering proper sets. They deserve the success they are finding.

I am crossing fingers Vazen can take on whatever low-interest business loans they need in order to at the very least fund the design of full sets and publish specs and a rough timetable.

I think that just having those plans up on their site would increase sales dramatically.

Also seems like if they can do RF-mount, they can also maybe do E-mount and L-mount versions for that m43 series... interesting!

Bruce Allen
www.bruceallen.tv

 

[J. Orlandi]

Niiiice!

BTW since you're in good communication with Vazen, I'm hoping someone can pass the hint to Vazen that the first company to offer a FULL set of anamorphic focal lengths for a good price, with good image quality wins.

I know I'm probably preaching to the choir here... but I am watching their stuff with interest but need a proper 5-lens set! Or at the very least a roadmap for one.

Orion lenses are doing very well, for precisely the reason that they have a clear roadmap and are offering proper sets. They deserve the success they are finding.

I am crossing fingers Vazen can take on whatever low-interest business loans they need in order to at the very least fund the design of full sets and publish specs and a rough timetable.

I think that just having those plans up on their site would increase sales dramatically.

Also seems like if they can do RF-mount, they can also maybe do E-mount and L-mount versions for that m43 series... interesting!

Bruce Allen
www.bruceallen.tv

So to answer all of this, I am an Authorized Dealer for Vazen. I handle their North American sales here, so all prices I'll be privy to. I'll be happy to tell you that most likely this new RF line of lenses will stay at the same range they are already. Making them the worlds most affordable 1.8x anamophic set mass produced.

I've been talking directly to their marketing manager and pushing them on more lenses. So far I can confirm they are coming out with a 65mm with similar size and specs to this 40mm T2.0.

Making the set 28mm T2.2, 40mm T2.0, and 65mm T2.?


That will be the first task. After that I'm talking with them and hopefully their optical engineer about a 100mm. I don't feel the 28mm matches as a "set" lens because it uses different optical design (expired Panavision patent) and is smaller physically. So ideally their first full matching set would be 40mm, 65mm, 100mm -

Right now I'm helping them gauge demand for these lenses. I told them people will buy if they make them. Right now they are the best optical quality anamorphic lens in their range. They "own" the market for this price range ($3,250 USD per lens) and as long as the demand keeps up, they will keep producing lenses it seems.

Their marketing is a little lacking at the moment, but I'm also helping them with that and communicating what the market wants / needs.


And finally, yes we already brought it up to them about Sony E-mount options, and mentioned some design options too. They agree, i told them moving forward they need to stop locking themselves into the M4/3 mount, since optically they cover the center of s35mm perfectly. Sony is a BIG player in cinema cameras and E-Mount is a no brainer to sell more lenses. Ultimately the public needs to be educated on how to use a 1.8x lens that covers Academy 35mm vs Super 35mm

Once people realize the workflow, this will be huge since you aren't losing any information for a regular 2.39:1 image.


So yes, all of this I have already spoken to them about, and its an on going relationship between my company and theirs to make sure they put out the best products for the market.

 

[Bruce Allen]

Awesome - thank you for the detailed response, also for the transparency about company relationships. Sweet.

Yeah I usually rent Alexa Mini + Kowas... but these Vazens are VERY attractive for B-cam / gimbal / personal scout / pitching lenses.

Also for stuff like VFX let me tell you it's mighty nice to own lenses whose characteristics and distortion you know precisely... Instead of staring at something you shot on a funky set of rented lenses, scratching your head because you didn't have time to shoot full charts to map out that crazy distortion

I like wide of course, so I'm interested in that 28mm 2.2 even if it looks a bit different.

I wonder if (like Kowa), Vazen can find or make a wide-angle adapter for the 40mm to give us a 32mm option.

I agree Vazen seem to have a really interesting product but need better marketing and info. This thread with screenshots of coverage, etc helps a lot. Thank you!

Bruce Allen
www.bruceallen.tv

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

Please keep us posted!

 

[J. Orlandi]

Please keep us posted!

Will do!

Also just a note for everyone. When RED offers more sensor crop options via firmware in Komodo it looks like the Vazen 40mm and 65mm should fully cover Komodo 5k HD (16:9). So if you’re wanting that super wide 3.66:1 (actually think it’s more like 3.50:1) you can get that at 5k no problem.

Also for reference 4.5k on Komodo is right about m4/3 sensor size.

 

[Andreas Eymannsberger]

Interesting development.

Glad to see you can offer some input what practicality of focal lenghts and matched sets mean in a film production context. But kind of sad to see that you can't consider the 28mm to be part of at least a 2-focal-lenght-base to start with. Long way to go until there's a 3-4 focal lenght set available I assume. Still, best of luck with the effort!
From an outside perspective it seems to be an interesting choice to start with 3 different, unmatched kind of lenses for different formats and mounts.
I just checked the 28mm and it really looks different. Way less optical correction happening. Personally I like the 28mm better somehow. But glad to see the 65mm announced.

Wondering about coverage, but the 28mm is easily too wide for 90% of shooting on S35 sensors. But this leaves customers basically with two lenses per format. Maybe three then for S35/M43 if you don't care about the different characteristics.
I'm just wondering if extending the matching offerings for M43 and S35 would cover most of the need and would bring a sub 10K matched set of anamorphics somewhat closer to reality.
Not trying to bash the products, just wondering about R&D choices and market needs.

If they are redesigning the whole back section, please add feedback for some fixed-screw-down lens support. RF will need that too.

 

[J. Orlandi]

3 different, unmatched kind of lenses for different formats and mounts.
I just checked the 28mm and it really looks different. Way less optical correction happening. Personally I like the 28mm better somehow. But glad to see the 65mm announced.

interesting choice to start with 3 different, unmatched kind of lenses for different formats and mounts.

Wondering about coverage, but the 28mm is easily too wide for 90% of shooting on S35 sensors.

The 28mm is a different optical design from an expired Panavision patent. This is why it looks different. It actually as more optical correction going on for stretch compensation.

They are not starting with 3 different unmatched lenses. They are just starting 2 different lines. The full frame and the M4/3. The M4/3 just happens to cover Academy 35mm, so adding RF and Sony E mounts was a no brainer.


Unfortunately their original target audience was very much the amateur filmmaker and stills photographers, both who didnt understand or have setups to handle a regular anamorphic lens. Vazen had people complaining about the size of the 40mm T2.0 so they decided to make their next lens smaller, hence the 28mm different optical design and size. Vazen is not a 100 year old optics company, they are new, and they are learning the market. I'm trying to help them with that on the pro market side.

They will eventually have a matching set for the Academy 35mm coverage lenses, and the full frame coverage lenses. They are just doing it 1 lens at a time vs in sets. Allowing sales to happen and slowly grow.


The 28mm was I think an unfortunate gaff when it comes to understanding professionals need matching sets, they were talking to stills people and weekend filmmakers instead of the pros. The good news is Vazen learns QUICK.
So they are refining their sets now.


I think the 65mm will actually be officially released in the next month, so they will have 3 lenses in the Academy 35mm coverage and 1 in the full frame. I know they are planning to expand both. So for now, it will be one lens at a time.


Personally I think starting with the 40 and then 65 is great, those 2 lenses can get a lot done in anamorphic use, specially on a RED komodo. Dont forget, if the 28mm doesn't cover 6K Academy 35mm on Komodo, all you have to do is change your capture size to 4.5K and the 28mm will work. I don't have a prototype for the 28mm RF mount, so I cannot confirm its coverage just yet.


In the end I'm hoping / thinking their "matching set" for academy 35mm coverage will be 40mm, 65mm, 100mm which is a fantastic usable set. Remember that Atlas did the same thing. The 28 might be that specialty wide angle lens option you need, so it may not "match" characteristics wise, but it is definitely usable within the set, it just might not be mechanically / optically the same.


These are my personal views. I think they are doing a great job at expanding and listening to the market. Going forward they have good plans to have a great set of anamorphic lenses under 10K

 

[Jordan Anthony Dudek]

Looking forward to seeing the full set, as well as the 65mm! Any chance of a limited white edition for the RF Mount?

 

[J. Orlandi]

I've actually been planing on talking to them about white options, haven't brought it up though, still talking mount options. RF is the first task.

 

[Bruce Allen]

I've actually been planing on talking to them about white options, haven't brought it up though, still talking mount options. RF is the first task.

I have one more annoying request - probably waaaay unrealistic for price point but...

Like many folks, I mostly shoot Arri. I sometimes shoot RED. The last thing I directed that got us into festivals was on a Canon C300 mk2. Then for scouting and personal stuff I own Sony and Fuji DSLRs. The only mount I haven't used is L-mount... which ironically has the best anamorphic support!

So:

1. Could they just pick some adaptable mount (PL or EF or I guess even M mount) so we can adapt to many cameras? Unless this doesn't work optically...

2. Any chance of getting some kind of deal with them where we can get mounts changed? Even if it's not user-swappable, can they do it at factory, or just give us a deal if you trade in our set? Though I guess the realities of industrial mass production may make this unfeasible.

I know this probably costs them more... but I'd pay $1000 more for a EF or PL version for sure. It opens up more opportunities like putting NDs behind the lens too.

-

One final crazy note (i don't expect them to do this, but again yes I'd pay ANOTHER $1k extra for this for sure):

If I'm buying a native RF-mount anamorphic, I would LOVE to get lens data passed across.

Currently:
- On the low end, plastic-fantastic stills lenses now have CA, distortion and vignetting correction in consumer Sony / Canon / etc DSLRs.
- On the high end, Zeiss CP3 and Supremes pass info and you can remove the distortion and vignetting, do VFX, then add it back to your taste.

For anamorphics it goes even further in the future for me, especially if you want lightweight affordable lenses making high-quality images.

One complex thing is correction for mumps. Well, what if you built a lightweight, simple anamorphic lens with good image quality but no mump correction - but it passes the info of where the focus is to the camera - and the camera does the mump removal in viewfinder preview?

Now I know no RED camera has built in distortion compensation in the viewfinder so it's a bit ahead of its time (understatement!). But you know it'll happen one day. It is true that for some anamorphic jobs I want all of that funky distortion... but it would be lovely to turn it off if I needed to, or turn it to half, or one-and-a-half strength. Actually for virtual set stuff (where you have to remove all of this distortion anyway, then add it back) we need to solve these problems now!

Anyway, good luck man! Hope you are having fun with testing!

Bruce Allen
www.bruceallen.tv

 

[J. Orlandi]

It doesn’t work optically for any format. The flange distance is the issue. Only physically possible with short flange mirrorless designs like MFT and RF

An update is they are ramping up to make a small first batch of RF native 40mm T2.0 lenses. No dates for availability yet, but if you’re interested, please contact me and I’ll make sure to get a list going. They will most likely sell out quickly.

I’m going to try and get updates as they come. Their engineers are making it happen though as we speak, so shouldn’t be too long of a wait.

 

[J. Orlandi]

Here is a non-scientific lens test with a few different lenses including the prototype Vazen 40mm T2. Testing each lens with 2 different lighting setups for different looks. This was an esthetic test, and just to see what the feel of each lens brings with flairs and such. I was pulling my own focus so beware there are a few buzzed moments since the subject was always moving.

Shot on Komodo 6K 2.4:1 or in 16:9 and for anamorphic and desqueeze and crop in post.

On the bottom left corner of the video you'll see which lens is being used at the time and what T stop they are at. The prototpye vazen doesn't have an iris, so its always wide open at roughly a T1.8 (because the lack of blades)

 

[Tom Gleeson]

J,

What was Red's Reaction to the 1.8X squeeze request? We have been asking for this for nearly two years with no luck. The only response so far has been "we are looking into it." Prima facie a 1.8X squeeze should be easy but it must be more complicated than it looks?