Tested Monstro vs. Helium

[Misha Engel]

Really? Did you shoot epic dragon at iso1600 base? Isn't that how you'd have to shoot it to match Alexa's highlights and sensitivity at iso800? I don't know many people who were comfortable with that, in fact most people I knew kept it in the iso400-800 range.

Which isn't to say you couldn't get very nice images out of it. I still see great images coming from mx even but mx and dragon you still had to be careful with in a way that you didn't have to be with Alexa. And then it took dsmc2 and helium to clean up shadows to near Alexa levels but it lost a stop in the highlights doing so and gained some color shifts and some odd contrast issues in the shadows as well.

It's a good thing RED has Monstro and Gemini now, it's not easy to get the same amount of S/N ratio out of a 25 um^2 Monstro pixel, compared to a 68 um^2 Alev pixel (yes the Alev pixel is 2.7x bigger).
With Gemini (36 um^2) I think RED has surpassed the Alev sensor, not bad for a pixel that is 1.9x smaller.
And when you really have to shoot in the dark and get the most out of it you can always go speedmount (haven't seen one for an alex yet).

The low-light, DR, FoV, arguments for Alexa(65) are gone (taste is an argument the only counts for yourself).

 

[C. Burkhart]

In terms of the image itself, the real issue and the only one is the dynamic range ABOVE middle grey into the highlights.
The ability to recover information in the highlights is critical.
I really see digital as much closer to shooting reversal film. If you blow the highlight it's over.
Alexa was always reassuring on that front.

This is where I want to see the real comparisons.
I can always dig into the shadows and use noise reduction, but show me excellent roll-off and greater dynamic range/gradations above 90% and that is where I will be convinced.

I really like what I have seen from Monstro so far. It looks clean, smooth, with nice transitions and great color saturation, etc.
However, I would not invest in the eco-system currently around it or use it on a tough feature unless it was a Panavision-ized style product.

I am going to be shooting a feature for instance in Cameroun this year. We are in the jungle, in the dirty cities, near rivers, mountains, on dirt roads, etc. No way I would take a standard RED on the road like this. An Alexa, definitely. So you see, perceptions of durability, dependability and above all SIMPLICITY do make a difference.

Now consider the fact that the subject is albino children in the midst of a darker skinned population and that we are often shooting in jungle or forest situations, often passing though high contrast light and dark patches as the camera moves. Can you imagine how important to be able to recover the highlights is ? Let's face it most folks are going to turn to an Alexa in that situation just to cover their asses. That my friends is what RED is up against if they want to move into being more trusted for feature work.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

In terms of the image itself, the real issue and the only one is the dynamic range ABOVE middle grey into the highlights.

Not really, it's all about noise. If you need more highlights you lower your exposure, it's a question of whether the noise performance of the sensor allows you to do that comfortably. Highlight range over middle grey is entirely determined by iso which is adjustable.

 

[luigivaltulini]

In terms of the image itself, the real issue and the only one is the dynamic range ABOVE middle grey into the highlights.
The ability to recover information in the highlights is critical.
I really see digital as much closer to shooting reversal film. If you blow the highlight it's over.
Alexa was always reassuring on that front.

This is where I want to see the real comparisons.
I can always dig into the shadows and use noise reduction, but show me excellent roll-off and greater dynamic range/gradations above 90% and that is where I will be convinced.

I really like what I have seen from Monstro so far. It looks clean, smooth, with nice transitions and great color saturation, etc.
However, I would not invest in the eco-system currently around it or use it on a tough feature unless it was a Panavision-ized style product.

I am going to be shooting a feature for instance in Cameroun this year. We are in the jungle, in the dirty cities, near rivers, mountains, on dirt roads, etc. No way I would take a standard RED on the road like this. An Alexa, definitely. So you see, perceptions of durability, dependability and above all SIMPLICITY do make a difference.

Now consider the fact that the subject is albino children in the midst of a darker skinned population and that we are often shooting in jungle or forest situations, often passing though high contrast light and dark patches as the camera moves. Can you imagine how important to be able to recover the highlights is ? Let's face it most folks are going to turn to an Alexa in that situation just to cover their asses. That my friends is what RED is up against if they want to move into being more trusted for feature work.

Honestly speaking of problems I've had both with Arri and with RED in the last 11 years.
Do not think that in extreme conditions ALexa is better! Especially the Mini much more delicate on the power and wifi.
It's true, I've never shot in the African heat, but in the mountains in the cold with dust and all the shit that can happen even on wet and windy days, for extreme projects of Red Bull, I can tell you that it's a matter of luck. If you get a bad day, nothing works.
But from what I understand if you are actually going to Africa you have to be as light as possible and almost dependent on batteries for lighting too.
Why do not you get a Gemini at this point would do your case, especially in night situations?
Light, performing, dual iso, smaller!
*The high lights !!! if your problem is to close the aperture on objective 1/2 stop compared to an ALexa or if you think this would endanger your film then there is some other basic problem!

 

[luigivaltulini]

Not really, it's all about noise. If you need more highlights you lower your exposure, it's a question of whether the noise performance of the sensor allows you to do that comfortably. Highlight range over middle grey is entirely determined by iso which is adjustable.

Yep Correct .

 

[C. Burkhart]

Not really, it's all about noise. If you need more highlights you lower your exposure, it's a question of whether the noise performance of the sensor allows you to do that comfortably. Highlight range over middle grey is entirely determined by iso which is adjustable.

NO. JUST NO.
You cannot just pull down the ISO and it's not just about noise.
This is a common fallacy of RED owners.
And you do not understand how the Alexa works.
There is far more dynamic range below middle grey on a RED than above it.
This is not the case with the Alexa. It is more evenly distributed.
In my experience there is about 7-8 above and 8 below on an Alexa if we were using the charts that are being used here.
The only reason ARRi claimed 14 is that their idea of usuability did not include the noisy deepest values, which RED does.
However, RED always seemed to have around 5 - 6.5 stops above middle grey and the majority of the DR below, while the Alexa consistently has at least a stop and a half more above.

Further, if you play with ISO ratings on RED, as you move off the base ISO, you LOSE dynamic range.
With the Alexa this is not the case. You can shift your ISO (or middle grey value if you prefer) up to 3 stops in either direction and you do NOT lose dynamic range.
This is due to the dual gain architecture.
I can under or over expose easily by 3 stops and correct an image almost back to zero without much visible difference.
This is not the case with RED. I guarantee you on that front. I have seen this over and over again.
A 3 stop underexposed RED image is not nearly as clean as an Alexa one and color shifts/anamolies are far more present.

The Alexa absolutely, without a doubt preserves highlight values better than most RED cameras, and often I don't even need to pull the ISO down in the kind of conditions I am talking about. In other terms this would be called latitude. The ability to shift up or down without affecting values in any substantial way. Most cameras have a sweet spot, otherwise the image suffers. MY experience is that the sweet spot on the Alexa's is much larger. That is the difference.

Once again, I cannot speak for Monstro or Helium as I have not tested them myself personally, however as far as Dragon is concerned this is definitely the case.

 

[C. Burkhart]

Honestly speaking of problems I've had both with Arri and with RED in the last 11 years.
Do not think that in extreme conditions ALexa is better! Especially the Mini much more delicate on the power and wifi.
It's true, I've never shot in the African heat, but in the mountains in the cold with dust and all the shit that can happen even on wet and windy days, for extreme projects of Red Bull, I can tell you that it's a matter of luck. If you get a bad day, nothing works.
But from what I understand if you are actually going to Africa you have to be as light as possible and almost dependent on batteries for lighting too.
Why do not you get a Gemini at this point would do your case, especially in night situations?
Light, performing, dual iso, smaller!
*The high lights !!! if your problem is to close the aperture on objective 1/2 stop compared to an ALexa or if you think this would endanger your film then there is some other basic problem!

I agree, when you are in dogfight with the elements, it's always a crapshoot.
And a mini is definitely not built like an SXT.

However...

Gemini ? You have to be kidding.

The Gemini would absolutely be the WRONG camera for this job.

Firstly, I wouldn't trust either the body/brain, or the accessories in these conditions (from experience way to fragile) or the fact that it is a new product (which always has to have bugs worked out) for a second under these conditions. Or I would have to take three of them just in case.

Further, and more importantly there is not just a half stop difference if I pull ISO. There is at least 2-2.5 stop difference.
It seems to me that you do not properly understand the implications of "Lowlight Mode" on this camera yet for instance.
It is a question of latitude. As I have explained in the post above.
You have to hit a sweet spot with a RED in a way that you do not with an Alexa in order to retain it's full dynamic range.

As the long haired dude explained in the Gemini video, you cannot just use the stoplights in lowlight mode, when the highlights are clipped, they are GONE. Forever. Think about why that is.

You need to see that RED video again and you will understand more clearly what I am talking about.
Look at around 2:40. He clearly states lowlight mode is NOT for shooting in bright sunlight for instance, it's going to clip and you are going to lose at least 2 stops. Why? Because the vast majority of the DR is being shifted below middle grey where it is likely being treated by noise defeating circuitry or software, and leaving only 4-5 stops above.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcKPupoLtKM

With an Alexa you can shift your ISO downwards or upwards 2-3 stops and you will still always retain 7-8 stops of DR above middle grey. Why? Because of the dual gain architecture. That's the difference.

And no, HDR mode from RED has never achieved as satisfying or reliable results.

What remains to be seen is if Monstro has expanded it's DR and sensitivity so far above the norm and previous gen sensors including the Alev, that it has defacto defeated dual gain architecture. I have my doubts, but I remain open.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

NO. JUST NO.
You cannot just pull down the ISO.
This is a common fallacy of RED owners.
And you do not understand how the Alexa works.
There is far more dynamic range below middle grey on a RED than above it.
This is not the case with the Alexa. It is more evenly distributed.
In my experience there is about 8 above and 8 below if we were using the charts that are being used here.
The only reason ARRi claimed 14 is that their idea of usuability did not include the noisy deepest values, which RED does.
However, RED always seemed to have around 5 - 6.5 stops above middle grey and the majority of the DR below, while the Alexa consistently has at least a stop and a half more above.

Further, if you play with ISO ratings on RED, as you move off the base ISO, you LOSE dynamic range.
With the Alexa this is not the case. You can shift your ISO (or middle grey value if you prefer) up to 3 stops in either direction and you do NOT lose dynamic range.
This is do to the dual gain architecture.
I can under or over expose easily by 3 stops and correct an image almost back to zero without much visible difference.
This is not the case with RED. I guarantee you on that front. I have seen this over and over again.
A 3 stop underexposed RED image is not nearly as clean as an Alexa one and color shifts/anamolies are far more present.

The Alexa absolutely, without a doubt preserves highlight values better than most RED cameras, and often I don't even need to pull the ISO down in the kind of conditions I am talking about. In other terms this would be called latitude. The ability to shift up or down without affecting values in any substantial way. Most cameras have a sweet spot, otherwise the image suffers. MY experience is that the sweet spot on the Alexa's is much larger. That is the difference.

Once again, I cannot speak for Monstro or Helium as I have not tested them myself personally, however as far as Dragon is concerned this is definitely the case.

You are saying exactly the same thing as me. I'm not saying you should increase iso on red dragon or helium and get the same results as Alexa. I'm saying that the highlight range is adjustable by changing iso. As I said earlier, if you do that on dragon or helium enough to match Alexa's highlights you will find there is quite a bit more noise on the red and cannot do it as comfortably as on Alexa and cannot push it as far. Before you respond to someone in all caps you may want to understand what they are saying and be sure to understand the context from the rest of the thread.

Also how could you possibly lose dynamic range just by increasing iso on red? It's just a raw metadata adjustment and the dynamic range is fixed just like in arriraw.

 

[Thai Christen]

You are saying exactly the same thing as me. I'm not saying you should increase iso on red dragon or helium and get the same results as Alexa. I'm saying that the highlight range is adjustable by changing iso. As I said earlier, if you do that on dragon or helium enough to match Alexa's highlights you will find there is quite a bit more noise on the red and cannot do it as comfortably as on Alexa and cannot push it as far. Before you respond to someone in all caps you may want to understand what they are saying and be sure to understand the context from the rest of the thread.

Also how could you possibly lose dynamic range just by increasing iso on red? It's just a raw metadata adjustment and the dynamic range is fixed just like in arriraw.

No, you do not change ISO.
You expose in a way that the distribution curve moves further to the left on the histogram.
So when your footage gets pushed in post, it won‘t clip.
Whether this is right or wrong, I leave it to others to judge.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

No, you do not change ISO.
You expose in a way that the distribution curve moves further to the left on the histogram.
So when your footage gets pushed in post, it won‘t clip.
If this is right or wrong, I leave it to others to judge.[/QUOTEy

That's the same thing. Changing iso just helps you see what you're shooting so it doesn't look too dark and so you can see what it will look like corrected in post...

 

[luigivaltulini]

Gemini ? You have to be kidding.

The Gemini would absolutely be the WRONG camera for this job.

Firstly, I wouldn't trust either the body, brain, or the accessories in these conditions (from experience way to fragile) or the fact that it is a new product (which always has to have bugs worked out) for a second under these conditions. Or I would have to take three of them just in case.

Further, and more importantly there is not just a half stop difference. There is at least 2-2.5 stop difference.
You clearly do not understand the implications of "Lowlight Mode" for instance.
It is a question of latitude. As I have explained in the post above.
You have to hit a sweet spot with a RED in a way that you do not with an Alexa.

As the long haired dude explained in the Gemini video, you cannot just use the stoplights in lowlight mode, when the highlights are clipped, they are GONE. Forever. Think about why that is.

You need to see that RED video again and you will understand more clearly what I am talking about.
Look at around 2:40. He clearly states lowlight mode is NOT for shooting in bright sunlight for instance, it's going to clip and you are going to lose at least 2 stops. Why? Because the vast majority of the DR is being shifted below middle grey where it is likely being treated by noise defeating circuitry or software, and leaving only 4-5 stops above.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcKPupoLtKM

With an Alexa you can shift your ISO downwards or upwards 2-3 stops and you will still always retain 7-8 stops of DR above middle grey. Because of the dual gain architecture. That's the difference.

And no, HDR mode from RED has never achieved as satisfying or reliable results.

What remains to be seen is if Monstro has expanded it's DR and sensitivity so far above the norm and previous gen sensors including the Alev, that it has defacto defeated dual gain architecture. I have my doubts, but I remain open.

Good.
However, It wants to be a good discussion.
Well then I'm here in front of ALexa and I'm trying what you're saying, a normal shot and a shot under 3 stops, the same on Dragon, both behave the same in DAvinci Resolve, Scarlet-w Dragon has slightly more noise blacks and yes Scarlet-w has a little (0.5stop)less DR than ALexa.
But the dynamics behave exactly like on ALexa whether you climb or descend .
Put me your example in the RAW for what you're saying. So I can understand what you're seeing in your shots?

Quick shot...

ARRI RAW at T2.8:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ivlc909yg3iekuf/ALEXA.zip?dl=0

Scarlet-w at T3.5:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ugh7pejg3y8yv1y/RED.zip?dl=0

 

[Misha Engel]

Good.
However, It wants to be a good discussion.
Well then I'm here in front of ALexa and I'm trying what you're saying, a normal shot and a shot under 3 stops, the same on Dragon, both behave the same in DAvinci Resolve, Scarlet-w Dragon has slightly more noise blacks and yes Scarlet-w has a little (0.5stop)less DR than ALexa.
But the dynamics behave exactly like on ALexa whether you climb or descend .
Put me your example in the RAW for what you're saying. So I can understand what you're seeing in your shots?

Quick shot...

ARRI RAW at T2.8:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ivlc909yg3iekuf/ALEXA.zip?dl=0

Scarlet-w at T3.5:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ugh7pejg3y8yv1y/RED.zip?dl=0

And we all know now the difference between Dragon, Helium and Gemini

 

[Curtis boggs]

I'm curious how everyone in these tests are making the helium so noisy,
because I get some super clean images from mine.

C

 

[Curtis boggs]

In actuality, I know quite a few RED camera owners who are turning to alternatives. They are fed up with the rapid loss of value on their investment and the endless and extremely expensive upgrade cycles. Even the fact that they have to pay $6k just to have a 2 year warranty extension pisses them off. With the advent of the higher end Monstro and Helium products their Epics and Dragons are now regarded as $300 a day rental kits. That means they are on par with Sony FS7 renters. Further, one person who does a lot of corporate told me that he was so impressed with the quality of a Sony A7S Mark II which he had bought as a little corner cam, and which cost one twentieth the price of his RED, that he honestly thought about selling the latter.

I think that RED needs to fundamentally rethink their strategy if they wish to maintain the lower end client, and on the other hand it appears that the higher end which they are shooting now for doesn't appear that enticed either. I say simplify their lineup. Make fewer, slightly less expensive, but sturdier workhorses, reduce the price of their accessories, cut the price of the warranty extension by two thirds and concentrate on who their core is. Right now, that seems unclear. The next thing they need to do is visit EVERY rental house in the US, Europe and Asia and ask lots of questions about their product. Get that essential feedback. Then they need to overhaul their line based on this feedback and make sure that their next line of products gets in those people's hands. An ongoing relationship with the rental houses is the only way they are going to ever compete with ARRI for the higher end market. They need to lose the barbed wire tattoos, the scruffy "dude" who explains their latest Gemini camera, the dumb skull logo on the side of their "weapon" and the idea that the California/West Coast bubble is anything close to a representative sample of the owners that use their cameras around the world. In short, it's time to stop thinking so locally and go global in their strategy. Panavision was a good step, but right now it feels like the same old horse with new clothes. They need to go further and they need to conceive their next camera from the ground up like a market leader who cares about durability over time and heavy duty production issues, not as an afterthought with a strategic partner.

Heck, even I as a long term, truly hardcore skeptic of RED, but for the first time a fan with their latest sensors, even I would do the legwork for them if I felt that they were truly willing to alter their mentality and be open to a new approach towards reorganizing themselves towards a more productive set of goals. However, this the latter, seems the hardest thing of all, and where I have the greatest doubt. Because it means setting aside some egos, in order to be truly open, to listen and to be willing to grow. Who knows, perhaps I am wrong, but it seems to me that they do need someone to go on the road for them, who's job it is to just listen to the rental houses, to ask the right questions and then to go back and begin to implement change around a core set of ideas. They really need to do this, if they ever truly want to get beyond the perceived chaos of their current headquarters culture and take the next step in terms of respect from the industry.

Just my two cents.

YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[rand thompson]

Luigi,

Thank you for providing these clips and for doing these tests. Graded to similar exposure and color


Arri clip- not to familiar with transform for Arri so just graded it Raw

Scarlet-W- transformed to "Low Con" "Very Soft" in Redcine-X then graded.

 

[Thai Christen]

And we all know now the difference between Dragon, Helium and Gemini

So what?
Who shoots at 6400? Even at 12800?
Don‘t you proper light guys?

 

[Misha Engel]

So what?
Who shoots at 6400? Even at 12800?
Don‘t you proper light guys?

The main reason that "The Revenant" was shot with Alexa65 was because of the way it was shot, "when possible, natural light only".
6400 and 12800 iso (with a speedmount) are HUGE money savers.

 

[Thai Christen]

The main reason that "The Revenant" was shot with Alexa65 was because of the way it was shot, "when possible, natural light only".
6400 and 12800 iso (with a speedmount) are HUGE money savers.

Are you sure? Why didn’t they shoot with A7S then? Much much cheaper (would have saved tons of dollars), lighter and more portable considering the circumstances they faced during production.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Are you sure? Why didn’t they shoot with A7S then? Much much cheaper (would have saved tons of dollars), lighter and more portable considering the circumstances they faced during production.

They did because "nobody got fired for buying IBM" haha

 

[Thai Christen]

They did because "nobody got fired for buying IBM" haha

Haha. Good one.
No, seriously, if you have the budget you hire proper crew and lighting. Even if it is mainly natural lighting, it does not mean you don‘t light at all.