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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Test test test... blog blog blog.

To be fair this site is now the new Cinema 5D forums and I think they're trying to show they unbiased approach to all digital camera's ( unlike the old Cinema 5D) hence no HDLSR in the mix...so good for them.

Having said that, this is a truly appalling test ( given their creators obvious limited experience ) with exposure, lighting & shooting Exec's in front of windows ......and of course their fashion sense ; )

However the truth of the matter is all 3 cameras IMO are great cameras , some more great than others. But at the end of the day 5 years ago we could only dream of camera at this quality and price point. Conversely this now means a whole lot of people have access to high end gear with no idea.....I guess this is the price we pay for the " democratisation of production".

Anyway back to the fashion .........as discussed here ( one of my most favourite threads ) http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...y-to-Lose-My-Respect&highlight=finger+framing

To be really stylish on set & look the part everyone needs to start wearing "Ascots" not Tuxes & moustaches ...............that's so yesterday Phil.
 
Matt Ryan said:
Confused with too many buttons? WTF?! It's a freaking touch screen that is very intuitive and easy. Push the wrong button, push it again to turn it off, simple shit.
Click to expand...

I didn't notice them use the touch screen as a touch screen once in that video. Did they even know it was one? That would explain a lot.

On the button mapping, though I've yet to try it, isn't it possible to, via REDMag, copy them to a nice little folder on a laptop so if you rent etc you can always load your own presets when you set the camera up?

That said being used to a certain style of operation can lead you to prefer a certain style and be faster with it even when another is as good or better objectively. The qwerty keyboard layout is an example, there are layouts that its possible to type quicker with, but overcoming the training for qwerty and the limits in efficiency gains makes the idea a non starter. With the qualification we are used to a similar operation style finding the f5 easiest to use is a fair enough conclusion for that part.

Their post skills make them look very poor. Why the hell would you post a video admitting you couldn't get any footage off the camera?
 
Whelp. I'll jump in as I work with several Epics here and there. If you are using the DSMC Side Handle, or really any of the buttons you can have connected to the camera at any point, you can indeed save the presets and load them up to one or several bodies. Quick, customized, and easy to use. I personally map most of my keys to cycle through various exposure and focus check modes.

The touch screen and the side handle for me represent the best option out of these three cameras in terms of interface.

Honestly, if you can operate a smart phone you should have no problem operating an Epic or Scarlet. I am just at a loss when people tell me "I've heard they are hard to shoot with" and I whip out my Scarlet and show them how crazy misinformed that opinion is.


Watching this "review" leaves a lot to be desired. No offense to the guys behind it, but in reality this is nothing more than a casual quick look. I get paid to do camera tests and stress tests for studios and I didn't see a single test here other than what it's like to just quickly pick up a camera and shoot. Perhaps maybe labeling this as "quick first impressions" would have been more important here rather than the more provocative "A vs. B vs. C". I know if I had my company name and face attached to it I would present this differently. I also get paid to sometimes "train up" folks on cameras and the system as a whole. I see a lot of the misinformation and confusion that people have. Some comes from word of mouth, some from the internet, some from just using other systems and being "used" to that.

Anywho. There were some valid points brought up within the video. Matt Caulk seemed to be the most informed guy there and brought up the rather extremely valid point on the BMCC battery issue.

On to camera balance. When using the Sony F5 in that sort of ENG mode they displayed in the video I find balancing out the Epic/Scarlet with the Pro I/O expands not only the length of the camera with an AB or V-mount on the end, but also it's functionality. Which, to me, if you are shooting run and gun/ENG you would want those extra XLRs and monitor support.

The tests shown here with varying lighting conditions, mixed exposures, camera angles, inconsistent lenses really can't be looked at more than a first look.

This comes down to the "tester's" opinion. There are no licenses or regulations on camera tests, opinions, or the internet. Whether or not that opinion comes from an "camera authority", working professional, kindergarten student, a shooting under a sponsorship, or somebody just starting out in their journey as a cameraman is all up in the air. So while each camera is created differently, so are different shooters.

From what I gather Rob's been shooting since about 2010. "Got my self a Canon 7D and now the road to being a DP begins…".

I was there once. Except that was film and I was fortunate to be around and ask questions to people who had several decades of experience back when I was still wiping snot from my nose and as green as a lima bean. That was informative time that I will never find a way to repay those individuals for. That experience led to a career and I've been fortunate to test a great deal of gear since, some that has never even been brought to the market. I think I did a good job of transferring my knack for breaking and fixing things as a child into a money making opportunity over the years :)

Often, at least for me, a trusted opinion comes from somebody with a working camera experience. Or at least a minimum, somebody's work you enjoy. Mostly this video shows somebody who enjoyed shooting on an F3 and therefore likes an F5.
 
I have resisted this thread because I felt like taking the piss out of these guys was just unfair.

They are young and learning. Seems like every young man is an expert at that age, and so sure that they are right.

Sad and funny at the same time.


David
 
" and I whip out my Scarlet and show them how crazy misinformed that opinion is. "

I picture you with a snorricam rig on your back that allows you to just grab the scarlet and show them...
 
I saw this as some people who did not have access to information on how to properly use a Red and potentially now with the backlash will not want to learn and my even develop a resentment towards them, which is unfortunate. Perhaps this is on the rental house for not giving them a run through, or offering one for a minimal fee, or is on the testers for not taking their time.

Any renter should be given a quick rundown of a camera they have never used, tips tricks, and links to the series of Red videos and articles about how to properly use red cameras. Maybe this is common practice and was ignored or avoided by the testers who knows... I just feel people should be given a quick rundown on features and tricks and sent a link to the learn section of red.com when renting or buying or trying out a red camera heck any camera(obviously to their own respected learning resources).

the fact they had different lenses also made me wonder if they were lacking funds for the test and could not afford a pl mount for the scarlet as well as a pl adapter for the BMC (is there one?... a proper one) let alone two more identical pl mount lenses. The naming of this quick test could have totally changed the outlook of many people.
 
Stephen Matthews said:
I saw this as some people who did not have access to information on how to properly use a Red and potentially now with the backlash will not want to learn and my even develop a resentment towards them, which is unfortunate. Perhaps this is on the rental house for not giving them a run through, or offering one for a minimal fee, or is on the testers for not taking their time.

Any renter should be given a quick rundown of a camera they have never used, tips tricks, and links to the series of Red videos and articles about how to properly use red cameras. Maybe this is common practice and was ignored or avoided by the testers who knows... I just feel people should be given a quick rundown on features and tricks and sent a link to the learn section of red.com when renting or buying or trying out a red camera heck any camera(obviously to their own respected learning resources).

the fact they had different lenses also made me wonder if they were lacking funds for the test and could not afford a pl mount for the scarlet as well as a pl adapter for the BMC (is there one?... a proper one) let alone two more identical pl mount lenses. The naming of this quick test could have totally changed the outlook of many people.
Click to expand...


The only available mount on the BMCC is a canon EF which only a very limited number of PLs fit the PL adaptor for. There is a M4/3 version in the wings but not available yet which PLs will adapt to.

A simple solution lens wise would be a pair of CP.2s (a days hire should be affordable) one EF one PL both same focal length. This would allow effectively the same lens (mount being the only difference) on all 3 unless the scarlet was a Nikon or Leica mount of course.
 
Mike Garrick said:
To be fair this site is now the new Cinema 5D forums and I think they're trying to show they unbiased approach to all digital camera's ( unlike the old Cinema 5D) hence no HDLSR in the mix...so good for them.

Having said that, this is a truly appalling test ( given their creators obvious limited experience ) with exposure, lighting & shooting Exec's in front of windows ......and of course their fashion sense ; )

However the truth of the matter is all 3 cameras IMO are great cameras , some more great than others. But at the end of the day 5 years ago we could only dream of camera at this quality and price point. Conversely this now means a whole lot of people have access to high end gear with no idea.....I guess this is the price we pay for the " democratisation of production".

Anyway back to the fashion .........as discussed here ( one of my most favourite threads ) http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...y-to-Lose-My-Respect&highlight=finger+framing

To be really stylish on set & look the part everyone needs to start wearing "Ascots" not Tuxes & moustaches ...............that's so yesterday Phil.
Click to expand...

Mike: Thank you for your mostly kind support :)

Yes indeed the cinema5D forums are now a part of planet5D and yes, we're wanting to expand our coverage and knowledge. But of course, that's a big learning curve which I'm glad to take on. In doing so, I'm also asking for others who might be interested to share what they've learned about gear/cameras on planet5D. Are they all super high level pros? nope. I've never claimed to be professional filmmaker. I report on things as I learn them and hope to help others. And I'm willing to let others who want to learn try their hand at reporting as well.

To some others:
planet5D is growing and adapting along with many of you... however it is obvious from the harsh words posted by some here that they don't remember that they were once learning and growing too. And some of you don't seem to remember that your words can hurt feelings. It is sad how some of you look down on others so easily.

The young man who presented the video came to me willing to put himself out there to share what he feels he's learning. Is he perfect? no. Are you? no. Are you helping this young man by bashing him until he bleeds? I don't think so. Providing constructive criticism would be so much more helpful than some of the hateful comments I've seen here today. I have seen a couple of very good suggestions, but I've also seen some elitism here.

planet5D will continue to share what we're learning about the world and many will learn as we go. If you choose not to visit, that's ok. But bullying is not cool. If you don't like the video, turn it off and find something you do like. And if you have a heart for those who are learning, then provide constructive help and this young man can learn something. Some of you have done that and it is appreciated!

Some have suggested to me that we should try to make the planet5D forums "more like reduser" because it is more "professional" - well, if this thread is an indication of what a professional forum is like, then I'm perfectly happy to stay the way we are. And if you're turned off by some of the attitudes you see here, then give planet5D a try... you won't find that kind of thing happening over there.

Best of luck to all of you in your careers.

planetMitch
 
I think most people were put-off by the name and description of the 'test' it states in the article "We did a very intensive test on the BMCC, Red Scarlet and Sony F5." which is simply not true and can be misleading to others who might not know any better. Clearly they did not familiarize themselves with the camera and thus their comments will lead people to believe statements that could be otherwise a non-issue if the 'testers' did about 5 min. of reading. Were some people here a little harsh? Yes, but to be fair they are responding to the mis-information that is passed off as knowledge.
 
mitch aunger said:
Mike:

Best of luck to all of you in your careers.

planetMitch
Click to expand...
That's one of the most disingenuous posts I've read in a long time. You can't say that you're "just learning" while pretending to perform "very intensive" tests. And you can't just tell us to turn it off if we don't like it, because presentations like this are misleading. Zacuto's tests, despite their issues, were way more "professional" and "intensive" than yours - and Zacuto was up-front about its limitations for the most part.
 
Mitch, sorry we were a bit harsh in our reaction. I for one, do not want to give off the elitist vibe. That's not what Reduser is all about. If you really want to learn about the Scarlet I would be willing to sit down with you fellas and answer any of your questions. I can bring my Scarlet and we can bullshit and drink beer or whatever :)

My criticism: It is all in the presentation. This was presented to the world as a "test" comparing 3 different cameras. In order for the audience to be able to draw meaningful conclusions, we need to trust that the presenter has an acute knowledge of the cameras being tested. If this had been presented differently, you would not have gotten the harsh criticism that you did. It did not feel like a kid looking for feedback in order to advance his learning. It felt like a kid giving his biased opinions on cameras he has never worked with. Personally, I don't care what he is wearing as long as he knows what he is talking about. He didn't know what he was talking about.

Whoever, told you to check out reduser because it is more professional has a point. Check out the SALT lens tests conducted by Redusers. It is a very thorough, well researched, and carefully executed test. They provide meaningful data that can be referenced by all to draw their own conclusions. Proper "tests" require a lot of effort and meticulous planning, but when conducted properly, everyone learns something.

Good luck man. Peace.
 
I think the issue is that, if you are going to learn; learn, then SHOW the results. There was no final footage. I understand they wanted to do a "post" video, but why not just include it in this video? This way the path to learning is at least revealed.

I mean, i have a blog and i do gear reviews, but its just something i do to help me mentally solidify my own research in words. Consolidating my notes and then share my findings of the equipment i come across on jobs. So i suppose im part of the ecosystem. Cant really criticize, i've made mistakes in testing, and been taken to task for it. Then i would regroup and redo it properly based on feedback. I hope they read this thread and think about the criticisms not as attacks but a lesson in what "Not" to do next time.
 
Mitch , I think Clint & Timur said it better than I ever could.....so I'll add .............another 2 more cents .

We are ALL still learning, the day you stop learning in this fantastic business is the day your dead.

Everyone learns & everyone makes mistakes and this is a learning experience for OP's. Myself I would've gone a bit easier if I knew they only had a few years under their belt..see Phil's Post .As to fashion statements I'm so unfashionable I'm will be "IN" again In ten years time. I'm also sure if the reviewers signed up to Reduser we would only be to happy to explain the in & outs of these camera's & why what was posted wasn't.........good.

P.S. Goodluck with the new site venture.
 
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Hi Mitch,

As stated in my original post, I bare no ill will towards the reviewers or yourself. I am not an elitist. Nor do I trade in insults. Nor do I dispute anyones right to do anything at all, except only when it is harmful to myself or others. Unfortunately misinformation can be quite damaging to others even when unintentional, so this made me feel compelled to post my concerns in what is the relevant forum for me as a Scarlet owner. I think your defence of your reviewers is admirable, but I do hope you might also be able to see the other side of this coin too.

That said, I confess the fact this thread would likely draw some ire was not lost on me. So I do feel some responsibility in having started it. But as in fairness I feel must the reviewers, and indeed you.

Perception is very powerful, and when you post and endorse tests on your site and email them out to your readership, I'd contend that however you may or may not see yourself, it gives them a weight that brings with it a level of expectation and scrutiny that perhaps in this instance hasn't really served any of us too well.

I don't want anybody to feel bad. Not you, your guys, or the guys on here who were upset by the test and so had a dig either. But nor do I want to feel bad after clicking on an email and seeing that people en-masse are now being quite badly misinformed about the capabilities of the camera I own and worked ever so hard to get, and may even negatively affect my families welfare.

However, there's no malice or ill will on my behalf, just a desire for improvement, and I can genuinely say that I do wish everyone well with their careers.

Best

Lliam
 
I've done a slight mod to my original post.

Everyone is entitled to make mistakes, but by putting stuff like this into the Internet universe you do risk getting the shit kicked out of you. Perhaps it might not be a bad idea to revise the title of the article.

Also it might be best to compare all of the cameras with moving images instead of one being represented with a still frame.

Still there is no reason to get mean, but you had to know that this was hardly scientific or thorough and there are plenty of people willing to defend their investments in a very tried and true professional system..

david
 
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