Temporary Scarlet replacement

[Alden Anderson]

I was wondering if anyone has a recommendation as to what camera might be good until the Scarlet gets released. Here is some more info as to what I am looking at.

I will be shooting a bunch of outdoor scenes, landscapes and people for a historical documentary later this year. Everything is outdoors and uses all natural light. I was planning on shooting it all on the Scarlett I'm just not sure that it will be released in the time frame that I need it in (October of this year and some shots sooner).

Ideally I could buy a Red but this is out of my budget (it is all being paid for out of pocket). My next idea was to just rent a Red but as I want to do a bunch of practice on the camera before hand and since I'll be doing a bunch of weekend work over a period of 3-4 months I don't think this would be viable for the budget either.

I have a canon t2i and while this camera doesn't hold a candle to anything with red in its name I have looked at some of the close-ups with the shallow dof and it may work for some of these type of shots. However the long shots with this camera or any DSLR for that mater just doesnt resolve detail very well at all. As a matter of fact I compared (nothing official or scientific) a long shot of the t2i and the canon hv20 and the hv20 looked better in terms of detail and clarity in the foliage.

I have the money for a Scarlett (about $6 k) and was thinking of investing this in a different camera for the time being, perhaps a Sony EX3 which I have found used for around this much. While I hate to spend the money I have saved for a Scarlet on anything but the Scarlet I need a camera to start shooting with now.

Forgive me for any ignorance I may have on this subject but I am looking for any recommendations as to other cameras for the time being.

As an additional note audio is not a big issue as there will not be any dialogue just foley.

Any suggestions or ideas are much appreciated.

Thanks!
Alden

 

[ryan castañeda]

I would say that, bang for buck- at the moment 7D with a red rock follow focus and shoulder rig, with a small-hd monitor- either their dp-1 or dp-6- this works for me-

I want the scarlet, but it all depends on when it comes out- Also there is talks of canon coming out with a 4k camera body- so yeah 7D (over the 5D- because of the frame rates) until scarlet

then scarlet comes out- upgrade then

Ryan C
bluedecember.com/blog

 

[Alden Anderson]

Thanks Ryan. My hesitation on the 7D rig is that the sensor doesnt seem to do very well when it comes to foliage and landscape shots with subtle detail. For Cu shots its great though and I may go that direction but I need something for the wide shots.

Interesting, I wonder what the canon plans are for 4k. I'd assume it's not in my time frame of this year.

 

[Aaron Newsome]

I'm not sure the 7D is a good recommendation. Doesn't your T2i already have video quality comparable to a 7D?

I would think an EX3 or a used camera would make more sense. After I saved up to buy a Scarlet, then realized it might be a while before they were made. I looked at the EX3 but ended up buying a used camera instead.

 

[Mohammed El Sharqawy]

I would say that, bang for buck- at the moment 7D with a red rock follow focus and shoulder rig, with a small-hd monitor- either their dp-1 or dp-6- this works for me-

I want the scarlet, but it all depends on when it comes out- Also there is talks of canon coming out with a 4k camera body- so yeah 7D (over the 5D- because of the frame rates) until scarlet

then scarlet comes out- upgrade then

Ryan C
bluedecember.com/blog

the Canon 4K camera is only a rumor.. and the spec list was totally not very realistic..

Canon’s RED?
Received this spec list in regards to a video camera with an EF mount.

Specifications
- Unconventional case, more like a Hasselblad.
- Alloy heatsink for extended shoot times and lower heat related picture noise.
- FF 4k sensor, no line skipping and much reduced jello effect
- ISO 100-1600
- Pellicle Mirror however it can be flipped up if a OVF isn’t required to regain the lost 2/3 stop.
- EF fitment
- AF when pellicle mirror is down
- Digital Follow focus to control lenses electronically
- Twin CF slots
- Add on module with SSD drive for extended shooting, like a virtual film mag.
- 4:4:4 SDI out
- HDMI out
- 3D LUT capacity

This is currently a “skunk works project that was initiated with the 5D video explosion. Designed to be a base body, leveraging the existing EF glass. 3rd parties left to develop rails, matte boxes etc.”

the link I saw about it is here:
http://www.canonrumors.com/2010/06/ef-video-camera-specs-cr1/

one simple question: how are they going to record this 4K to a CF card? or even an SSD?
for 16:9 the datarate will be 4096*2304*12/8= 13.5 MB per frame
which means at 24 fps you need 324 MB/s sustained write media

many other questions may rise to make this rumor too good to be true..

the canons that I think will be more reasonable and the announcement of them are coming in July are the 60D and the 3D..

they're all rumors too.. hope we see anything..

 

[Aaron Newsome]

Mohammed, it's possible that the recording system could write to striped devices. Fast SSD or CF in RAID 0 could handle that data rate.

 

[ryan castañeda]

the 7D does better then the t2i for sure- same sensor, different frame rates- better processing- and yeah for sure the canon 4k is only a rumor- hens the "talks" I should have been more specific-


sony ex3 is also a good choice, but its alot more money then a 7D or 5D- but then panasonic is coming out with their interchangeable lens camera

Ive shot natural landscapes with the 7D and it does fine

your other options are to rent any of the cameras we have talked about

7D, 5D, red 1, ex3 etc....

if your in LA, several rental houses deal with all of them


ryan

 

[Mohammed El Sharqawy]

Mohammed, it's possible that the recording system could write to striped devices. Fast SSD or CF in RAID 0 could handle that data rate.

yes you're right, but it would be impractical and lot of hassle to do it this way.. think about higher frame rates.. how will they handle them?
say you'll need 8xCF cards in Raid 0.. or two ultra fast SSDs..
RED has put a lot of money in REDCODE to save you needing 20GB per minute recording.. so a 64GB device will handle 3 minutes..
you can also record such signal on a 4K DDR.. which is at the size of a microwave oven..

 

[Lee Saxon]

Mohammed, it's possible that the recording system could write to striped devices. Fast SSD or CF in RAID 0 could handle that data rate.

I'm not sure CFs could. The problem with them is often not just overall speed but speed consistency over time.

The SSD module, no problem. We're probably not that far away from single SSDs that can handle those speeds.

 

[Alden Anderson]

the 7D does better then the t2i for sure- same sensor, different frame rates- better processing- and yeah for sure the canon 4k is only a rumor- hens the "talks" I should have been more specific-


sony ex3 is also a good choice, but its alot more money then a 7D or 5D- but then panasonic is coming out with their interchangeable lens camera

Ive shot natural landscapes with the 7D and it does fine

your other options are to rent any of the cameras we have talked about

7D, 5D, red 1, ex3 etc....

if your in LA, several rental houses deal with all of them


ryan

Hmmmm.... I have tried the 7D as well and the leaves and other small detail just don't resolve as well as I'd expect, and by expectations come from shooting on the HV20. As I mentioned earlier to me it looks like the Canon Hv20 (HDV consumer camcorder) has better results than the t2i/7D when it comes to detail in landscapes ( I say this without fully testing each side by side, so it's just a first impressions test).

I may wait until July and see what Canon has. Otherwise yes I may rent an ex3 to see how it looks and decide from there. In terms of price however and I am new to the whole DSLR video thing it seems like it is a few ($2-3k and up depending on the brand) to get your 7d or 5d to handle like an ex-3 (Shoulder mount, eyepiece, follow focus etc.)

I'd definitely be interested in in doing a comparison with the 7d and ex 3.

Thank you for the information.

 

[matt.alan.martin]

Hi Alden,

which lens did you use with your T2i and what iso settings, Fstop, etc., did you use when you shot the landscape footage? The HV20 is really good at keeping a deep depth of field and looking crisp, so it's possible that when you shot the landscape footage with the T2i that maybe some of it wasn't as crisp because of a more shallow depth of field or a zoom lens that lends towards distortion in the wide shots. My guess is that if you were to use some good wide angle glass with the T2i you should be able to get superior results (better dynamic range, more filmic look) to the HV20.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

one simple question: how are they going to record this 4K to a CF card? or even an SSD?
for 16:9 the datarate will be 4096*2304*12/8= 13.5 MB per frame
which means at 24 fps you need 324 MB/s sustained write media

many other questions may rise to make this rumor too good to be true..

Yes, because on this forum we know that no one, anywhere, has managed to record 4K to CF cards.

That's clearly impossible, and absolutely why Canon couldn't possibly manage this.

I am going to guess that you've never heard of RED or a camera called the RED One?

I'll take that a step further and guess that you have never heard of compression.

Canon could easily accomplish the specs in that list. I don't think they will do it, but for their own internal politics and "strategy."

Since we are playing the Canon what if game, here is my wish list:

an APS-C camera

24fps QuadHD
1080p 96 fps

Accomplishing that would require new and faster image processing chips: helloooo DIGIC V Video chips

10 bit 4:2:2 200Mbps compressed codec (MPEG-2 or MPEG-4)
Dual CF card recording. (The codec I posit only requires sustained 25 MB/s write speed.)

3G SDI output, 10 bit
HDMI output
2 XLR inputs, 24 bit 48Khz PCM audio.

ISO levels to roughly match the 7D.

I'd love to see an OVF, but I'm sure they'd choose to deliver an EVF

No mirror. It will ship with EF mount of course, but it would be very easy to convert to PL, and possibly PV mounts.

EF and EF-S lens compatibility.

A few L series lenses optimized for video use. Almost definitely they be autofocus designs. Hopefully with hard stops and gears. Most likely f/2.8 zooms. I'd really look for an EF-S video lens that runs 24-135mm f/2.8.

I'd also like to see a Canon version of the Tokina 10-16 f/2.8, as well as video version of the EF-S 17-55 and the EF 70-200.

If they stick to EF-S type lenses, we may get some very nice f/2 zooms.

What we might actually get from Canon:

Same as above, but with:

Dual DIGIV IV Video chips. 1080p 60fps bursts, and up to 30fps continuous.

8 bit 4:2:2 recoding at 50Mbps. (Can't outperform the XF300 and XF305)

HDMI output only in one model (Priced close to the XF300 with an L series 24-70mm lens, or my theoretical EF-S 28-135 f/2.8)

HDMI, HD-SDI (10 bit 4:2:2, not 3G), and TC In/Out in a higher end model. (As above, same lens, priced near the XF305)

Aliasing and moire will be solved to great degree by taking a "block randomized sample" of 1920x1080 pixels read outs from the sensor instead of line skipping. The image will appear to have more "film grain characteristics" if this approach is used.

16 bit 48Khz PCM audio.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I say go with the Canon 7D as a video camera for now.

The T2i is an inferior camera to the 7D. It only has one DIGIC IV chip, and its compressed video is of lower quality as a result.

I have not experienced any of the high frequency detail issues you describe with my 7D.

Where you are most likely to see issues is on clean man made edges at certain angles and some fine textured "solid" areas. These can cause moire. Only testing can tell you for sure what will react.

For example, I had a problem with gold velour starfleet uniforms, but no problem on blue velour uniforms. I could solve the gold velour problem by changing the distance to subject, so either more or less detail resolved.

(That said, the same velour uniforms wrought similar havoc on EX1 and HPX170 cameras.)

Like any camera, TEST TEST TEST.

I also recommend a mattebox and some quality diffusion filters be kept on hand.

 

[David Rasberry]

Check out the footage samples from the hacked version of the Lumix GH1 before you decide. Hands down the best HD video from any DSLR so far when it comes to resolution and detail with minimal artifacts. T2i and 7D are both pretty soft on wide shots with fine detail. Diffusion only makes them worse.

 

[Jimmy Odom]

:iagree:

 

[Alden Anderson]

For the T2i I was shooting with the kit lens (18-55) at f8 ISO 100 (18mm). With the 7D I was shooting with the Tokina 11-20? also at f8 and iso100.

I was under the impression that the sensor for the T2i and 7D were virtually the same but I guess thats not totally correct?

I do have access to the 7d so yes I will do more shooting with both and if not satisfied I guess I'll try out the ex3, rent it for a weekend and see how it looks.

Never thought about using the Lumix GH1. I'll have to look in to that.

Thanks for the info!

 

[Rick Burnett]

I don't know where you get this inferior t2i knowledge but it is NOT our experience. Mind you, I shoot with a 7D because I need the video out during record into a smallHD, but I have tested the t2i extensively and have even followed MANY tests online that have shown that the quality of the results are the same.

Pertaining to deep focus on the 7D, I can tell you that it does indeed not do a good job at resolving detail at great depth. In fact, Barry Green over on DVX just did a good comparison of deep focus on the 7D, a hacked GH1 (known now as a GH13) and another camera. In all tests the 7D came in last by almost every person that voted.

I personally believe it is not a problem so much with the sensor but the compression they are using. I have done test after test and can tell you, deep focus detail in trees and such just falls apart. IF you are bringing the image down to 720p from 1080p, it's not horrible.

The BIGGEST problem with ANY Canon is the rainbow moire. EVERY project I have been on we have dealt with it. At least with the GH1 you'd not have to worry about that. It's absolutely horrible, and that, along with the aliasing, is a nightmare. ALMOST every bit of footage I shoot will not work at 1080p, it is that evident.

If you were looking at the Scarlet, and deep focus, I'd be looking at something like a Panasonic or Sony used like you were looking at. During the day with a lot of light, they are going to do well at resolving deep detail. I only recommend the DSLRs for shallow focus.

Pertaining to the GH13, the hacking may not be practical. There are TONS of threads over on DVX if you want to get more knowledge on it. The GH13 deep detail is MUCH more resolved than the 7D. Again, I blame it on the compression.

 

[srinik]

Is ex3 good enough to make a full length feature.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Is ex3 good enough to make a full length feature.

Well, it wouldn't be my first choice, but yes you can make a feature with an EX3 or an EX1.

Mostly this is because I find the EX1 and EX3 don't allow me to get the DoF as shallow as I may want.

You can try and work around this with a DoF adapter... but that is not my first choice, as it drops your effective ISO to 200 or 250 depending on the camera settings. (Typically a 2/3 stop loss in my experience.)

The other shortcoming is that the codec is 8 bit 4:2:0. I feel you can't push that codec around enough in post if needed. You can work around that with an outboard recorder, like the KiPro or NanoFlash.

You could try a 2/3" camera. That's close to 16mm sensor size, and you can use lots of B4 cine glass and converted S16 glass. You can control DoF better on 2/3" video cameras.

Right now I recommend a Sony F350. That camera is essentially a Sony EX3 but with 2/3" chips. I'd still recommend an outboard recorder though.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

For the T2i I was shooting with the kit lens (18-55) at f8 ISO 100 (18mm). With the 7D I was shooting with the Tokina 11-20? also at f8 and iso100.

I was under the impression that the sensor for the T2i and 7D were virtually the same but I guess thats not totally correct?

I do have access to the 7d so yes I will do more shooting with both and if not satisfied I guess I'll try out the ex3, rent it for a weekend and see how it looks.

Never thought about using the Lumix GH1. I'll have to look in to that.

Thanks for the info!

The sensor is identical in the T2i and the 7D.

The difference I have seen is entirely the quality of compression. For scenes where the compression is a non-issue the images are identical.

In other words the high detail trees mentioned earlier.

I always forget about the GH1... especially its hacked version.

I don't have access to one, but it is a very interesting camera I'd love to test myself.