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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Temporary Scarlet replacement

Alexander Ibrahim said:
...My tests are usually done with the crappy kit 18-135 lens at f/4 or f/5.6. ...
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It seems to me that sensor line skipping and too fine OLPF resolution coupled w/ the crapy codec and low DoF shots would make lens quality less of an issue (except for the quality of the bokeh).

Is that fair to say or you still find a big difference when using the nice lenses?
 
It's not that the whole image starts to moire, it's that if you have a large textured object taking up a huge portion of the screen that is at a distance that the fine detail causes moire, you'll get moire. Like you on some shots we just decided to live with it because the final grading was a desaturated high contrast look that hid some of the colors in the moire.

But even beyond that is the difficulty in detecting the moire. I have done shots with the external monitor that is 720p and not seen the moire until I brought it up on the computer at 1080p. Granted, most of the time the external monitor is able to show enough detail that I can see it, not always.

Some shoots we have done I agree have had no issues, the problem is, you never know. I've seen jeans do it horribly on some shoots and not others, just happened to hit that zone where it is a problem.

I do know about all the setting changes and have gone through them, including adding sharpness in post. The problem is, once the color contamination is in the moire, you are stuck with it, and it is VERY hard to get rid of. I agree though that using the different settings than the default (and what you describe) do get the best results.

If I can get some time (as I am currently slammed with a project I am doing 3D rendering for) I will do some moire tests with the different settings and see what I can come up with.
 
Peter Moretti said:
It seems to me that sensor line skipping and too fine OLPF resolution coupled w/ the crapy codec and low DoF shots would make lens quality less of an issue (except for the quality of the bokeh).

Is that fair to say or you still find a big difference when using the nice lenses?
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There's a big, big difference when shooting 5K stills. For 1080p video, I don't see a noticeable difference. This has been verified through tests and charts on DVXUser. The bottleneck is not the lens for 1080p compressed video, and your logic is sound. For 5000x3000 images, yes, but not for the 1280x720 resolved images from 1080p video.

HDSLRs are very difficult to work with, but they do have their merits. Close-ups of blunt objects with shallow depths of field seems like the ideal condition. I would personally never dare film a wide, detailed shot on a DSLR. You never know what kind of anomaly you may pick up!
 
Subhadip Sen said:
I would personally never dare film a wide, detailed shot on a DSLR. You never know what kind of anomaly you may pick up!
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You ever see those games in a bar where they give you two pictures and you have to spot the differences between the two?

That's what looking at wide deep DSLR footage is like. You have to look all over like crazy and try and *see* what you're *missing* :)
 
How many months of "future proof" is PMW-350K XDCAM (read some where it is good enough to stay around for a while). Is the price of PMW-350K worthy in comparison to Ex3 in terms of overall performance.
The question may sound amateur but those are my genuine concerns.
 
Jim Retar said:
I would go with a GH1 plus hack.... it deals with landscapes and deep focus better than the other DSLRs... but still has a nice shallow DOF if needed. Moire and compression are much better, aliasing is still a problem though.
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due to the mind-less banter and bashing I couldnt read far enough into the thread to see if you've made a decision or not...

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=42580

I saw the Hv20 being mentioned and I am currently taking offers on mine if you're interested.
 
I have both a Red 1 and a GH13 (hacked GH1) -- and as several others have mentioned, I think for the price there is nothing that comes close to the GH13 in terms of pretty useable imagery even with the complex image demands of nature involved. And in certain non-critical situations, if your release is 1080p (logical for a doc), I'd even say you could insert some GH13 footage here and there within a Red 1080p timeline if the GH13 was the only choice because of size, discretion, etc. And I've done it.

Basically a hacked GH1 will cost you 1500 to set up complete with slow but sharp 10x zoom & cards (get good reliable fast cards, be aware that the "class" designation for speed rating is largely BS.) And then get a Tascam or Zoom4 or Marantz 661 for audio for interviews or where things are set up and it's audio critical.

You may need all that DSLR type of handheld rigging -- or maybe you won't. I personally don't. I shoot mostly locked off (advise) static shots. None of these cameas 7d, 5d or GH1 like moving or handheld that much.

Again, the more detail that is provided about the specific demands/style of a project, the easier it is to make meaningful recommendations.

(Some people seem to have forgotten or overlooked that Alden has budget limitations & fragmented scheduling which makes renting tricky both practically and budgetwise -- and also forgotten he's shooting a DOCUMENTARY so maybe the DOF obsession isn't so relevant or important to him. )


I'd also consider the EX1 which is close to within your budget, and I think will retain its value well even after Scarlet- and while of course it only has limited DOF control because of the small sensor, it is a very easy to operate camera with remarkable image quality -- and I suspect will retain a lot of value even after Scarlet comes out. (I'd guess you'd lose at most 2K in 4-5 months). My guess is (just a guess) , considering recent developments, we're not going to see Scarlet until 2011. Of course I hope I'm wrong.
 
But

But

What is the majority of people shooting on this threads? I mean understand what you mean about detail and artifacts and not having the crispiest image in the world but still depends on what are you shooting, are we all shooting the sequel of Baraka on 70mm? This and last year i saw two documentaries at the cinemas one won Venice and the other one was my documentary, both of them looked pretty amazing on that huge screen and it was DVX100. Now I'm shooting with 7D and T2i, I can't wait to see a movie in the cinemas shot with these machines, the quality it's outstanding, i was a bit concerned at the beginning but after seeing the results with the incredible DVX I understated that I was waisting time worrying about quality.

Quality it's already here for anything you want to shoot, you just need to light properly and shoot properly (this without getting into storytelling and production).

T2i for 840$ it's the real deal!
 
Imagine if Phillip Bloom had shot the Joshua Tree short with a firmware hacked GH1. That would have been nice!
 
rod bradley said:
I have both a Red 1 and a GH13 (hacked GH1) -- and as several others have mentioned, I think for the price there is nothing that comes close to the GH13 in terms of pretty useable imagery even with the complex image demands of nature involved. And in certain non-critical situations, if your release is 1080p (logical for a doc), I'd even say you could insert some GH13 footage here and there within a Red 1080p timeline if the GH13 was the only choice because of size, discretion, etc. And I've done it.

Basically a hacked GH1 will cost you 1500 to set up complete with slow but sharp 10x zoom & cards (get good reliable fast cards, be aware that the "class" designation for speed rating is largely BS.) And then get a Tascam or Zoom4 or Marantz 661 for audio for interviews or where things are set up and it's audio critical.

You may need all that DSLR type of handheld rigging -- or maybe you won't. I personally don't. I shoot mostly locked off (advise) static shots. None of these cameas 7d, 5d or GH1 like moving or handheld that much.

Again, the more detail that is provided about the specific demands/style of a project, the easier it is to make meaningful recommendations.

(Some people seem to have forgotten or overlooked that Alden has budget limitations & fragmented scheduling which makes renting tricky both practically and budgetwise -- and also forgotten he's shooting a DOCUMENTARY so maybe the DOF obsession isn't so relevant or important to him. )


I'd also consider the EX1 which is close to within your budget, and I think will retain its value well even after Scarlet- and while of course it only has limited DOF control because of the small sensor, it is a very easy to operate camera with remarkable image quality -- and I suspect will retain a lot of value even after Scarlet comes out. (I'd guess you'd lose at most 2K in 4-5 months). My guess is (just a guess) , considering recent developments, we're not going to see Scarlet until 2011. Of course I hope I'm wrong.
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Thanks for the suggestions Rod. Right now after listening to all of the suggestions and doing a bit of my own research I am thinking about the following:

Get a used Sony EX1 and shoot with that until the Scarlett comes out. Then sell it and even if I loose 2k it will still be worth the time I have used it.

Or get the GH1 (not sure what exactly the hack consists of).

A bit more information about the doc: It is primarily re-enactments and landscape shots. For a lot of the landscapes there will be deep focus to help get a sense of the vast distances. For the cu shots of the actors I think the shallow dof of the Canon (T2i in my case) will help but I am not overly obsessed with "DOF shallow...everything" mentality just for the sake of it. There will be a bit of handheld run and gun type shots of the 2 main characters. All of the shooting is outdoors on location from Utah through Death Valley and Los Angeles with a few of them needing visual Effects work. There will be no interviews or speaking lines from the actors so audio is not a big issue, more of an ambiance.

For the landscape shots there will be a lot of moving (crane and dolly) shots. These will probably be pretty slow however.

The doc will finish in 1080p and be available for Blu-ray and I also plan on submitting it to various networks (Discovery, History). Now my concern for this is that they may not accept the quality of these cameras. Any info on this? From what I remember the ex1 is okay though but I'm not sure what the consensus is on the new DSLR revolution.
 
EX1/EX3 cameras are the minimum acceptable for some of these channels. Better choice if you are serious about submitting.
 
The GH1 is not going to do well with crane shots, you have to use the 'shoot and pray' method :) It's because during recording, no video comes out of it that you can monitor on the ground. Unless of course you are going to be sitting up on the crane, but from the budgets you are talking about, I would imagine that unlikely (given those cranes are crazy expensive it seems even to rent, AND to have the operators for them).
 
I didnt realize the GH1 had no video out. Yes the crane I have is a kessler crane definitely cant sit on it. Some moves could be done by just controlling it from the front while looking at the screen but I would definitely be barred from doing anything above 5-6ft or so and looking at a tiny screen is a pain!
 
Alden Anderson said:
Thanks for the suggestions Rod. Right now after listening to all of the suggestions and doing a bit of my own research I am thinking about the following:

Get a used Sony EX1 and shoot with that until the Scarlett comes out. Then sell it and even if I loose 2k it will still be worth the time I have used it.

Or get the GH1 (not sure what exactly the hack consists of).

A bit more information about the doc: It is primarily re-enactments and landscape shots. For a lot of the landscapes there will be deep focus to help get a sense of the vast distances. For the cu shots of the actors I think the shallow dof of the Canon (T2i in my case) will help but I am not overly obsessed with "DOF shallow...everything" mentality just for the sake of it. There will be a bit of handheld run and gun type shots of the 2 main characters. All of the shooting is outdoors on location from Utah through Death Valley and Los Angeles with a few of them needing visual Effects work. There will be no interviews or speaking lines from the actors so audio is not a big issue, more of an ambiance.

For the landscape shots there will be a lot of moving (crane and dolly) shots. These will probably be pretty slow however.

The doc will finish in 1080p and be available for Blu-ray and I also plan on submitting it to various networks (Discovery, History). Now my concern for this is that they may not accept the quality of these cameras. Any info on this? From what I remember the ex1 is okay though but I'm not sure what the consensus is on the new DSLR revolution.
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Actually, I just looked at a comparison of the EX-1 to the Canon XF305 on DVInfo.net (I'd post a link but the site seems to be temporarily down).

The Canon has significantly more resolution in the test. So much so that it's a little to hard to believe and I'd recommend investigating more deeply. (Not to ? the veracity of the tester, just wondering if maybe something wasn't set properly on the EX.)

But if the comparison holds up and a deep sharp image is needed, the XF305 looks like a champ.
 
Peter Moretti said:
It seems to me that sensor line skipping and too fine OLPF resolution coupled w/ the crapy codec and low DoF shots would make lens quality less of an issue (except for the quality of the bokeh).

Is that fair to say or you still find a big difference when using the nice lenses?
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Yes there is a difference.

I usually try to shoot with Zeiss prime SLR lenses. The ones I ahve access to are F mount, so I use a cheap Fotodiox adapter, one for each lens and I leave it on for the shoot duration.

I like how they operate on set, and the results do in fact look different- and Zeiss lenses give a look I like. So do the better Canon lenses. (I tend to like Zeiss and Canon's look over how Nikon lenses look. )

On a DSLR, there is a huge downside though- they are sharper. That means more moire issues and the like. I sometimes have to use a shallower DoF than I might otherwise choose to deal with those issues.

So, with the 7D, it turns out that Canon lenses tend to strike the best balance between acceptable look and sharpness. The operation of Canon lenses is hit or miss though, and I much prefer Zeiss EF mount SLR lenses, but I rarely have them available.

I am eager to work with the Zeiss LWZ.2 lens in an EF mount. Its kind of silly to spend that kind of money on a lens for the 7D... ultimately however it isn't the camera, but rather the camera crew and production schedule I am trying to serve with that choice.
 
eos

eos

Mmmh. Guys, I have a stupid stupid question. "EOS 550d" and "5D Mark II". Is the full frame of 5D so influential that I could see a big difference on a 1920x1080, compressed video? I need to make a choice (and I hope Scarlet came first...). I find the 2 cameras at the same price, and it seems natural that I buy the 5D. But 5D was not studied for video, and 550D yes, and Lens for 5D cost more, and I know that the big frame size make strange jokes with aliasing and other things, so... Ah, and the 5D never work at 60fps...
Someone have suggestions?

PS. It look bad to talk about Canon on the Red forum...
I'm sorry Jared. Help me... I'll never became Peter Jackson without a camera... :-)
 
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Peter Moretti said:
Actually, I just looked at a comparison of the EX-1 to the Canon XF305 on DVInfo.net (I'd post a link but the site seems to be temporarily down).

The Canon has significantly more resolution in the test. So much so that it's a little to hard to believe and I'd recommend investigating more deeply. (Not to ? the veracity of the tester, just wondering if maybe something wasn't set properly on the EX.)

But if the comparison holds up and a deep sharp image is needed, the XF305 looks like a champ.
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Expected no less from Canon. They have generally done a superb job on this class of camera with each update.
 
Alden Anderson said:
Hmmmm.... I have tried the 7D as well and the leaves and other small detail just don't resolve as well as I'd expect, and by expectations come from shooting on the HV20. As I mentioned earlier to me it looks like the Canon Hv20 (HDV consumer camcorder) has better results than the t2i/7D when it comes to detail in landscapes ( I say this without fully testing each side by side, so it's just a first impressions test).

I may wait until July and see what Canon has. Otherwise yes I may rent an ex3 to see how it looks and decide from there. In terms of price however and I am new to the whole DSLR video thing it seems like it is a few ($2-3k and up depending on the brand) to get your 7d or 5d to handle like an ex-3 (Shoulder mount, eyepiece, follow focus etc.)

I'd definitely be interested in in doing a comparison with the 7d and ex 3.

Thank you for the information.
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I would be VERY interested in the results of your test comparison between the 7D and the Sony EX3.

Please post your results when the testing is finished.

Thanks.
 
Have a look here for information on the GH1 hack, and soon to be released GH2 with 1080p60 and sensor improvements. Also 4/3rds camcorder.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=46779

I wonder sometimes, from the reports, how efficient the Canon's h264 compression is. They could certainly do 96mb/s (12+MB/s) h264 to flash. Even the $99 HD cameras are using a descent H264 technology suitable to be upscaled to 96mb/s. So, the limitations in that Canon 4K spec looks realistically interesting to me, but I don't know if I would buy it over a GH2.
 
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