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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Tech support anamorphic Request

No, the "ANA" mode only records the center area of the sensor in a 4:3 aspect ratio. That's great for saving data and allowing for higher frame rates while shooting anamorphic lenses [as the 4:3 area in the center of the sensor is the only part needed to desqueeze to 2.4:1], but it doesn't currently desqueeze the monitoring pathways. If you used the full 16:9 sensor with anamorphic lenses, the image would desqueeze to 3.54:1... AKA Über-Scope™.

So they're half way there at this point. They have the mode, but it doesn't desqueeze yet.
 
Brook Willard said:
No, the "ANA" mode only records the center area of the sensor in a 4:3 aspect ratio. That's great for saving data and allowing for higher frame rates while shooting anamorphic lenses [as the 4:3 area in the center of the sensor is the only part needed to desqueeze to 2.4:1], but it doesn't currently desqueeze the monitoring pathways. If you used the full 16:9 sensor with anamorphic lenses, the image would desqueeze to 3.54:1... AKA Über-Scope™.

So they're half way there at this point. They have the mode, but it doesn't desqueeze yet.
Click to expand...

So, very quickly, I did my first anamorphic test today with an old Kovas Kinor 75mm Round front Anamorphic. I was happy from what I saw with the lens, but I am a bit confused, and sorry if this has been discussed which i am sure it has.
We shot 4K ana mode in camera inside the 4:3 box. When I view the images I am getting that Uber-Scope look when i desqueeze the image in REDCINE. I want to have a standard 2.4:1 crop. Is there a different camera setting I should be in to get this in camera and not have to loose the left and right parts of the frame? I am not quite sure how you frame for a 2.4:1 in camera when shooting in the 4K ana mode through a 4:3 squeeze factor if this is the correct aspect ratio after the desqueeze. When you desqueeze the image and try to fit it in 2.4:1 you lose a good portion of left and right parts of the frame. Do I just need to adjust my camera settings or do i need to desqueeze the image in a monitor to accurately frame correctly? Is the 4K ana using the full 16X9 part of the scensor? If so what other setting would compensate correctly for 2.4:1 if there is one?

I attached some examples from REDCINE to help. The Yellow frame guide is the 2.39:1 scope where i would like to fill the guide. You can see, the full unsqueezed width is that Uber-Scope like you call it Brook. I think its kinda cool but not exactly what I am looking for.

I am doing a MV soon with anamorphics and need to get the production and post end figured out for this so any help would be awesome!

Much appreciated!
 
So am I getting this straight? the extra bit top and bottom (the surroundview area) is NOT recorded on anamorphic mode? Thats a shame, because we would be getting an image closer to 3:1 rather than 3.54:1 which would mean we would have to crop less of the image again in post...

But yes Mike, you gotta crop the hell out of the side of the picture. The problem is that the 16x9 chip crops the top and bottom off the squeezed 4:3 area, which means you gotta crop it AGAIN at the sides when you unsqueeze it to return it to the 2:35 ratio...

Really annoying. I hear some people call this "progress".

I tend to disagree.
 
Well, it's the height of the sensor that is cropping the lens image vertically, since it's the height of a 3-perf 35mm frame, not a 4-perf 35mm frame. So you don't really lose resolution so much as you are making the lens a little more telephoto because you've lost 25% of the view.

Horizontally, you have to crop the 16x9 sensor because all you need is a 1.19 : 1 area to get a 2.39 : 1 image once you stretch it out by 2X. So the anamorphic mode of the RED is supposed to do that horizontal crop for you to save on data.

Is it a 4x3 cropped area? That would be 1.33 : 1, or 2.66 : 1 when unsqueezed. It should be around 1.19 : 1.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
Well, it's the height of the sensor that is cropping the lens image vertically, since it's the height of a 3-perf 35mm frame, not a 4-perf 35mm frame. So you don't really lose resolution so much as you are making the lens a little more telephoto because you've lost 25% of the view..
Click to expand...


Right but as I understand it, it's not recording the full height of the sensor - the surroundview area is not recorded at all in this mode. If it was recorded, we would have to crop a little less again on the sides of the frame...

Horizontally, you have to crop the 16x9 sensor because all you need is a 1.19 : 1 area to get a 2.39 : 1 image once you stretch it out by 2X. So the anamorphic mode of the RED is supposed to do that horizontal crop for you to save on data.

Is it a 4x3 cropped area? That would be 1.33 : 1, or 2.66 : 1 when unsqueezed. It should be around 1.19 : 1
Click to expand...

Sorry, yes you are correct. Not 4x3.
 
Ruairi Robinson said:
Right but as I understand it, it's not recording the full height of the sensor - the surroundview area is not recorded at all in this mode. If it was recorded, we would have to crop a little less again on the sides of the frame...



Sorry, yes you are correct. Not 4x3.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input, Ruairi and David,

I was beginning to feel like I recorded the image incorrectly. I"ll post a better example later today. So the only way to accuratley gauge your framing right now through the LCD is to use the 4:3 guides? Doing a crop on a crop in post is a little wierd. I don't mind doing it if i can actually frame for the center portion of the image correctly and it is interesting to have more room to shift the image later in post horizontally.
It would be nice for the desqueeze to be enabled and fit the image into the 2.4:1 guides they display but don't allow you to take full advantage of yet. Everything in time I guess. In the meantime anyone have any monitoring suggestions to rent?
 
Try 1.75:1 anamorphic adapter

Try 1.75:1 anamorphic adapter

Ruairi Robinson said:
Sorry, yes you are correct. Not 4x3.
Click to expand...

If you use an ISCO 1.75:1 anamorphic adapter on 4:3 you get Cinemascope (tm) thus,

1.75*1.33=2.34

Cinemascope was 2.35:1 that came from vistavision with a 1.5:1 anamorphic or full aperture 35mm with a 1.75:1 anamorphic. 2:1 anamorphics were for contact printing or using a spherical optical printer lens.

ISCO made some 1.75:1 "projection" adapters that focus for use in inflight movies to show 4:3 16mm frame as 2.35:1 on the screen. The 35mm 'Scope negatives were printed to the 16mm with special printing lenses to get the 1.75:1 squeeze.

Using 1.75:1 lets you use more pixels, and get a sharper image since you can use a prime group that does not need to cover so much image circle, and no crop would be needed just a digital unsqueeze of 1:1.75.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspect_ratio_(image)

http://www.iscoprecisionoptics.com/isco_new_e/home_cinema_e.html

Another option is to shoot 16:9 mode with a 1.33:1 anamorphic adapter that gives you 2.37:1 ratio. The adapter MUST be one that has a focus control to get sharp results with large stops.

There are some pdf on the ISCO page to look at...
 
You need to shoot a chart with a 2.39 : 1 frameline rectangle. Then you'd know:

1. If your camera's frameline matches that ratio (either match the top & bottom or the side to side lines of the chart if it doesn't exactly line up).
2. If REDCINE is properly displaying that ratio once unsqueezed.

Before any project you should shoot a framing chart so the editor knows what the frame your composing for is. For example, if you are shooting the RED in 2:1 mode for a 1.85 project, you need to shoot a framing chart where the 1.85 lines match the 1.85 crop marks in the viewfinder display.

Now the ANA mode may allow for recording slightly more than the theatrical 2.39 area in all directions. A movie camera shooting in 4-perf 35mm anamorphic does this -- you usually capture a full aperture negative but the lens is offset for Academy/1.85/anamorphic contact printing (i.e. leaves room on the left for a soundtrack) and there is some minor trimming top & bottom to allow for splicing, etc. But the anamorphic frame is more or less Academy width but almost 4-perf Super-35 / Full Aperture height in a 1.19 : 1 ratio.
 
Ahhh math I love it!

I can't believe we have the Director of Akira and the DP of Big Love to chime on Mike and I's new acquired Anamorphic ... I love it!

This is the bitch that is 16x9 sensors and Anamorphics. Next week were going in to chart and discuss monitoring options for a music video we have in a month.

DanCAD3D, I believe your talking about a Projection adapter. We haven't gotten that far yet.....

My main issue right now with using anamorphics is the monitoring option as I am aware of a few that have a "unsqueeze" mode but they not have the right aspect ratio for the Red.....

Reasearch.......
 
Light goes both ways...

Light goes both ways...

Dane Brehm said:
Ahhh math I love it!

DanCAD3D, I believe your talking about a Projection adapter. We haven't gotten that far yet.....

Reasearch.......
Click to expand...

Light goes both ways, you can shoot through the ISCO adapters that focus to INF, the 1.75:1 one we have goes from about 5feet to INF, for closer we use 4.5" Diopters like +1/2, +1, +2, +3... I made a table for what the focus numbers mean with the Diopters on.

Since the adapter makes the lens wider a 50mm becomes about 28mm wide. I have made a bracket out of thick metal to hold it in front of a f/1.1 50mm that gives me a high speed scope lens. The ratio of 1.75:1 is converted to 2:1 in my edit system from film scans, so that is not an issue for you since you can resize your frames also since you are shooting digital.

Hard to pull focus (takes two people), but other than that it gives less grain since the full aperture can be used.

If you shoot 16:9 plus a 1.33:1 adapter you can get Cinemascope and use more pixels on the sensor to overcome some of the OLPF losses.
 
All great information! Running tests this week. I'll take pictures and post details of the frame charts and make the r3ds available to download. Hopefully, it will be helpful to others until RED enables the desqueeze for accurate framing. We really need a on set monitoring desqueeze for director display, and camera.
Fun stuff!
Thanks for everyone's help! This is what I love about this communtiy, the best of the best offer their expert knowledge to those in need. Its extremely humbleing.
 
Look at monitor through 2:1 adapter...

Look at monitor through 2:1 adapter...

mikeburton said:
All great information! Running tests this week. I'll take pictures and post details of the frame charts and make the r3ds available to download. Hopefully, it will be helpful to others until RED enables the desqueeze for accurate framing. We really need a on set monitoring desqueeze for director display, and camera.
Fun stuff!
Thanks for everyone's help! This is what I love about this communtiy, the best of the best offer their expert knowledge to those in need. Its extremely humbleing.
Click to expand...

For now you can look at the monitor through a 2:1 anamorphic adapter sideways, to get closer focus you can put a Diopter lens on the front (big end), you look in the small end.

I like CRT monitors since one can adjust the vertical size to compensate for anamorphic images, that way you get higher pixel count than cropping the image on a LCD. You may be able to get a HD to SVGA box and use a CRT monitor with the vertical size all the way down and the horizontal size all the way up...

If you have a directors finder your scope lens will fit on, you could also look at the monitor through that sideways (to squeeze the height).
 
Framing Chart

Framing Chart

David Mullen ASC said:
You need to shoot a chart with a 2.39 : 1 frameline rectangle. Then you'd know:

1. If your camera's frameline matches that ratio (either match the top & bottom or the side to side lines of the chart if it doesn't exactly line up).
2. If REDCINE is properly displaying that ratio once unsqueezed.

Before any project you should shoot a framing chart so the editor knows what the frame your composing for is. For example, if you are shooting the RED in 2:1 mode for a 1.85 project, you need to shoot a framing chart where the 1.85 lines match the 1.85 crop marks in the viewfinder display.

Now the ANA mode may allow for recording slightly more than the theatrical 2.39 area in all directions. A movie camera shooting in 4-perf 35mm anamorphic does this -- you usually capture a full aperture negative but the lens is offset for Academy/1.85/anamorphic contact printing (i.e. leaves room on the left for a soundtrack) and there is some minor trimming top & bottom to allow for splicing, etc. But the anamorphic frame is more or less Academy width but almost 4-perf Super-35 / Full Aperture height in a 1.19 : 1 ratio.
Click to expand...

Our camera department insists that charts are useless. We are already into several weeks of shooting and aren't certain that what we are looking at is the same as what is being framed. Is there a certain way to request this so that they understand the usefulness? Or are there some instances when it doesn't make sense to shoot a chart?
 
The ANA mode is only showing guide lines to where it will crop it doesn't actually affect the image - your still shooting for example 4K 16:9. It also contains meta data telling REDCine what you've been shooting. The only annoying thing is that REDCine tend to mess it all up and you end up sorting that out instead.

I suggest you use the ANA mode for seeing where to "crop", make a mark on your monitors and then shoot 4K 16:9.

Do the crop yourself in REDCine, REDAlert etc.

(By the way Mike I've done the lens tests. I will email you results later).


Fredrik Callinggard
 
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