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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

super simple avid workflow

M

Maicol_Borghetti

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Hi I want to expose to you all my super simple avid work flow so you can help
me to find out all the mistake I do.

First at all: my target out from avid:
1080p full HD, a file ready to be used for any other lower target we need,
720p for internet or also lower.

Avid new project 1080P 23.97 color space 709
Avid AMA folder import with all the RED r3d files
in the bin choose colum --->reformat and set for all files to pillarbox/letterbox
In the AMA set source setting for r3d file and set gamma curve and color space
to REC709
now I directly create a sequence and edit it out from this r3d bin
I now put some levels of basic color correction, very very simple
color correction to the original film color.

now we go to export this sequence:
export as QT movie codec ANIMATION set some parameter as quality as you
prefer ( the file will be big) andt set color levels to 601/709
in this mode what you see in avid and what are you exporting have the same
color space.
now you have a big file, from this file you can downcode in every other format
you need..

We use this process with small project, short film 5-6 minutes max

please critique very hard becouse this process have errors for sure....
thank you
Maicol


ps
the point is that I'm happy for this process apart for a very very bad thing
when I see my video colors appear to me not like other red one projects i see over the internet...
the other projects have a pose latitude very higher... so where is my BIG ONE mistake?
(may also be my nikon lens...)
 
Much easier to convert using REDCINE to AVID DNX using REDCOLOR2/ REDGAMMA2 then put the files into AVIDMEDIAFILES directory and find them using MEDIA TOOL.

You can use AVID METAFUSE also for this.

I tend to use REDCOLOR2/ REDLOG and convert to DNX-185X (PAL 25p) then edit in Media composer and finish/grade in Symphony DX.
If you have tons of footage then DNX-185X makes big files, so I firstly encode to DNX 36 and only convert to DNX-185X for the footage that is actually in my final sequence.
 
No need to find them in the MediaTool. Just drag and drop the AAF files created at the same time as the MXF files and they will automatically relink to the media on the Avid MediaFiles folder. Easier than sorting through the MediaTool.

Michael
 
MichaelP said:
No need to find them in the MediaTool. Just drag and drop the AAF files created at the same time as the MXF files and they will automatically relink to the media on the Avid MediaFiles folder. Easier than sorting through the MediaTool.

Michael
Click to expand...

It doesn't always relink when using Unity/Isis
 
uhmm I don't follow you..
why you convert your r3d? with AMA linking that's not necessary and you save time. I find very frustrating wait r3d conversion...
with my workflow there is just 1 render when you come out from avid.

I find animation codec the best one. but may be I'm wrong. of course the top would be to encode in r3d code but this is not possibile.

Maicol
 
Maicol_Borghetti said:
I find animation codec the best one. but may be I'm wrong. of course the top would be to encode in r3d code but this is not possibile.

Maicol
Click to expand...
"The Animation codec uses run-length encoding, and as such works well for traditional 2-D animation where there are large areas of constant color. For complex 3D rendered scenes or digitized film of real-world footage, it barely compresses at all and can also add visible noise at lower than 100% quality levels."
So, I wouldn't use it, unless you're doing animation and you like large files with touch of noise.
DNxHD...
 
Animation codec is 8bit. Use DNX-185x as it is 10bit.

alternatively use the CINEFORM codec. This is also an awesome cross platform codec now supported by AVID
 
Can you export a sequence composed of AMA linked .R3D's as QT Reference? If you can, it will create a file of negliable size, as QT Reference is essentially a pointer to the sequence.
 
Peter Moretti said:
Can you export a sequence composed of AMA linked .R3D's as QT Reference? If you can, it will create a file of negliable size, as QT Reference is essentially a pointer to the sequence.
Click to expand...

You can't use QT ref with AMA, so you have to render out into some specific codec. You'll need to set up your own preset, probably. Animation is an old 8-bit codec, good for... Well, animation. Use DNX, or to be more universal, prores if you're on a Mac. I prefer red color and red gamma to 601/709. Also, avid is 601/709 internally, to allow for over white and under black- but QuickTime, in most apps, is full scale RGB. So, you'll want to export as RGB, not 709- expanding the color and contrast range so black is zero, and white is 255/1023.

GH
 
Greg Huson said:
I prefer red color and red gamma to 601/709. Also, avid is 601/709 internally, to allow for over white and under black- but QuickTime, in most apps, is full scale RGB. So, you'll want to export as RGB, not 709- expanding the color and contrast range so black is zero, and white is 255/1023.
Click to expand...


THIS IS THE BIG ISSUE FOR ME! avid show only 709 ... so how to see what you reallly get? i have this with gamma and color of the ama set to 709, if not this what you see in the monitor
have different blacks from what you export...
how you can do a color correction in avid ( a small color correction ) if you are seeing 709 and then you export in rgb???

about the animation codec:if you export with a DNX how you can see that file in QT? or how you can downsize it to other format? if you have to use avid to downsize it you can do directly from the sequence no need for a DNX..
anyway I'm actualy using QT to export downcoded format from full HD animation codec file. I will give a try to other codec you suggest.
 
Maicol,

If you change the settings in Full Screen Playback to Expand Luminance, Full Screen Playback will display 16 to 235 instead of 0 to 255. There is no way to change how the monitor windows map colors.

HTH.
 
Greg Huson said:
You can't use QT ref with AMA, so you have to render out into some specific codec. You'll need to set up your own preset, probably. Animation is an old 8-bit codec, good for... Well, animation. Use DNX, or to be more universal, prores if you're on a Mac. I prefer red color and red gamma to 601/709. Also, avid is 601/709 internally, to allow for over white and under black- but QuickTime, in most apps, is full scale RGB. So, you'll want to export as RGB, not 709- expanding the color and contrast range so black is zero, and white is 255/1023.

GH
Click to expand...
Avid can write Prores?
 
jake blackstone said:
Avid can write Prores?
Click to expand...

Sure, why not? Any QT-enabled software can write prores on a Mac that has prores on it- in our case, our systems all have both Media Composer and FCP installed, though I bet you don't even need FCP- but don't quote me on that! The export 'preset' isn't in the standard presets that are there when you first install Media Composer, but it's easy enough to create your own export presets.

As for 'seeing the contrast correctly' when grading in Media Composer, if you're using an external monitor set up correctly, you should be seeing the correct contrast. However, if you export a quicktime movie with the 601/709 settings, (anyone please correct me if your experience is different) the contrast then appears 'reduced' when looking at the quicktime movie in another application (including QT Player.) This is because QT player expects RGB. By exporting to QT out of Media Composer using the RGB setting, you 'expand' the contrast ratio from 709 to RGB, so the correct levels are maintained.

You should definitely experiment with this for yourself so you can see the differences. I'm not sure what other applications are working in 709- I do know that I don't have to add contrast (that I wouldn't normally add for creative reasons) when open Media Composer MXF files in DaVinci Resolve.

HTH

GH
 
Greg Huson said:
Sure, why not? Any QT-enabled software can write prores on a Mac that has prores on it- in our case, our systems all have both Media Composer and FCP installed, though I bet you don't even need FCP- but don't quote me on that! The export 'preset' isn't in the standard presets that are there when you first install Media Composer, but it's easy enough to create your own export presets.

As for 'seeing the contrast correctly' when grading in Media Composer, if you're using an external monitor set up correctly, you should be seeing the correct contrast. However, if you export a quicktime movie with the 601/709 settings, (anyone please correct me if your experience is different) the contrast then appears 'reduced' when looking at the quicktime movie in another application (including QT Player.) This is because QT player expects RGB. By exporting to QT out of Media Composer using the RGB setting, you 'expand' the contrast ratio from 709 to RGB, so the correct levels are maintained.

You should definitely experiment with this for yourself so you can see the differences. I'm not sure what other applications are working in 709- I do know that I don't have to add contrast (that I wouldn't normally add for creative reasons) when open Media Composer MXF files in DaVinci Resolve.

HTH

GH
Click to expand...

You'd be wrong my friend. How do you explain Smoke on Mac? It can't write Prores, even, though it meets your criteria of "Any QT-enabled software can write prores on a Mac that has prores on it"
 
Avid can write prores on a MAC only using Media Composer, No point really as going from one codec to another can introduce weird compression artifacts and also what I call digital noise.
The correct term for it is mosquito noise see link http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia_term/0,2542,t=mosquito+noise&i=55914,00.asp

If finishing on an AVID for output, i highly recommend using DNX or AVID 1:1x all the way through the final timeline and not to mix codecs even though AVID claim they are compatible with most.
Even though AVID will play other codecs in realtime they are still converting those codecs to DNX.

That is why I use metafuse on non AVID computers I have to convert footage to DNX such as RED, Canon 5d/7d etc.

I get a lot of people turning up at my office with a final pro-res timeline with alll effects mixed down etc, and when they want me to perform color grades/ legalization etc I find it pretty difficult to get the stuff into my symphony.

I tend to however, get the original media from the customer and link and convert from final cut to AVID (VIA Automatic duck) then I properly conform. P2 footage getting crunched to prores and then imported to avid into DNX looks pretty ordinary and the "sparkle or quality" of the footage turns into mosquito noise half of the time.

I never export as 709 (yuv) and always export as RGB as After FX works in RGB and so does most compositing software and also 3d software like Cinema 4d.

But again for RED. Avid does a terrible job in AMA mode so I would recommend exporting via metafuse (for low res offline) and Red Cine (redcolor2/ redlog)
 
Adam Eden said:
Even though AVID will play other codecs in realtime they are still converting those codecs to DNX.
Click to expand...

This is not true. There is no conversion of codecs unless you specifically initiated a trancode to a DNxHD target. Native codecs play natively and decompressed for playback. Of course mileage may vary depending on codec, and number of streams, but no conversion to DNxHD when playing.

Michael
 
Avid converts everything to DNX at the output stage to a monitor as the hardware output card is a DNX based! In converts in realtime using the cpu and gpu.
 
Hi again guys..
I think we are going a little far from my initial post..
back to the track:

I understand that i'm doing a wrong work in 2 points, the codec animation and
the color and gamma space.

I can't use prores becouse I'm on a PC what is the best codec for you? AVID
DNX or avid 1x1?

color and gamma space: Avid in the little monitor show only 709, I can color
correct this but what I really get out of avid is what I see in the full
screen mode.
why we can't color correct the full screen mode ??
this is not very clear to me... I know that color space is one of the big problem in this
industry but I need something simple.. can't be so misty

I'm on a pc with win7 64bit and MC5.5.1 nothing more..
I also don't want make 10 step to create my sequence, simpler and shorter is
the best for me.

thanks for you help is very apprecciated.
Maicol
 
If your going to finish and master in AVID (or FCP) , This is the best and fastest way of doing so.

The secret is to expell all meta data tags and start from the NEG base... ooops the R3D LOG base.
The same way we have done with 35mm for the last 20 years.
This thinking is what has saved me in POST. I pretend the R3D is NEG and post the same I have for the last 15 years. Problem fixed. If I have an issue with the shot, I go back to the R3D (like I would with the neg) regrade the info I needed from it. Same old system.. why change it, It wasnt broken.

My method is this. Transcode everything to these settings . (Via baselight or Resolve or best of all RED CINE X using RED ROCKET. etc etc etc...

SET GAMMA to : REDLOGFILM, or REDLOG,
SET COLORSPACE to: to CAMERA RGB or REDGAMMA2
(to get even cleaner whites to start from, MAX out the SATURATION for viewing only, balance the kelvin control to get a (new) pure white balance, once happy with the balance then bring your saturation back to default. DONE.. PRESS RENDER and never look back.

All of a sudden the FCP & AVID guys are grading in the edit suites in pure LOG in real time, The Flame guys have LOG, the Colorist can either grade these same log files or connect directly to the R3D's and have even more grading fun.
A lot of Colorists also don't set there grading tool settings to these settings, but if they do.. they will have the power and more.

There is many ways to POST RED. This is one that serves me well, I edit in real time, grade in real time, export in realtime.... In Avid and FCP. (even on my laptop)

In the next 3 months, this will change again once FCPX comes out. But until then...

Have fun guys.

Some demos:

http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/REDLOG_realtime_grading/Pro_res_in_real_time_(Car).mov
http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/REDLOG_realtime_grading/Pro_res_in_real_time_(Face).mov
http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/Dynamic_range/Dynamic range from a 4444 PRORES _ FROM RED.mov
http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/Dynamic_range/REDMX_latitude_test..mov
http://www.zoomfilmtv.com.au/ftp/FCP_3way_colour_correct/colour_key_RED.mov
 
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