Success...

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

We accept that you expect more from us. We expect more from us.

In the meantime... go shoot something that exceeds your personal expectations. You have the right tool.

Jim

Yes indeed, I do expect absolutely no-brainer commoditized 4K Post. Pretty please? I didn't buy an EPIC-X only to have to edit in DNxHD36 etc. I refuse to join the fanboy crowd on principle. Atleast not until RED demonstrates at NAB that Post is a MASSIVE priority for them, and delivers reliable, cost-effective, commodity solutions as soon as possible. (RED Rocket ain't it).

And yes indeed... LOVE shooting on the EPIC. Just love it. Onwards.

 

[Will Keir]

Yes indeed, I'm working through it now. Once you edit native 5k footage in Premiere, it's hard to go back to the GoPro jobs.

not until RED demonstrates at NAB that Post is a MASSIVE priority for them, and delivers reliable, cost-effective, commodity solutions as soon as possible. (RED Rocket ain't it).

 

[Björn Benckert]

Yes indeed, I do expect absolutely no-brainer commoditized 4K Post. Pretty please? I didn't buy an EPIC-X only to have to edit in DNxHD36 etc. I refuse to join the fanboy crowd on principle. Atleast not until RED demonstrates at NAB that Post is a MASSIVE priority for them, and delivers reliable, cost-effective, commodity solutions as soon as possible. (RED Rocket ain't it).

And yes indeed... LOVE shooting on the EPIC. Just love it. Onwards.

Come on,
r3d is by far and with no comparison the best camera source format when it comes to post. But of course if you think there are other formats that work better for offline and online that holds +5k resolution raw 16bit, then pick any of them. Try to scroll a 5k DPX sequence for example... It is not RED's fault that people tend to sit and edit in 10 + years old editing softwares like FCP7 or avid. If you just update your game a little bit and get a smoke or premiere things are working so much better with r3d's than any other format.

And regarding the rocket I find it quite low priced for what it actually do. Even though I think it's not really needed if you got your workflow straight and backed up with the right workstation.

 

[David Battistella]

Even though we live in a digital world, RED is more like traditional film style workflow. If you ever shot 35 or 16, R3D is really just the digital, more immediate version of these film formats.

Its easy to tell reading these forums who has shot film and who has shot video.

For people who shot film, REDcode RAW is an incredibly fast and effective method compared to the "slowdowns" of film (no immediate playback), dallies tomorrow, not today, DPX scans, telecine, etc. having instant playback, grading on set, and a format that is now integrated through software sdk in every major platform is a huge plus. It is a beautiful offline online process and you capture a format that requires a bit more care and lasts. For these folks REDcode raw answered dreams!

Then there is the video/efp/5d crowd. Here, these folks are finding it "hard", cuz before it was so, "easy". Everything is wysiwyg in the monitor. You pop a cf card into your laptop and edit with a bootleg copy FCP and away you go. Now RED comes along and kinda forces the game to be upped a bit, you gotta get a bit more knowledge and you need it fast. You actually have to consider workflow more and understand RAW capture and all the tools to get that right.

Im just making observations here from what trends here on the forums.

I agree there can be situations where it's fast turnaround, where 1080 is all the client wants or needs, were you just want Prores and that is great. RED has stated they are adding their tools to the plethora of 3rd party stuff out there. To me it all comes down to understanding and execution. Know the tool, know the workflow, sell the benefits and create a system of production that supports the format you are capturing.

EPIC is not a 5d or a betacam, or any other camera. Its a raw image capture device. Even photographers who shoot RAW understand that there is more to get out of shooting RAW but with some (barely noticeable) workflow adjustments.

Me personally, I treat RED like film, light like film, crew up like film, but with the benefit of shooting 35mm from a backpack setup, with sync sound, if I want. That is the amazing choice red put into the marketplace. When I take that attitude, I find myself still saying, "holy shit, I can't believe this" when I'm in some obscure location with the EPIC rolling massive 5k RAW frames.

Attitude is every thing.

R3d is easy, dead easy. Quick turn around, long form, drama, documentary, ads, anything you can point a camera at.

It's easy.


PS: this is for Martin Weiss

Success isn't working hard enough to afford a RED, success comes with the hard work you put I after you have the tool in your hands.


david

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

I want to keep this in the tone and intent Jim started this thread off with. You guys are all saying things that are true, but you are missing the intent of my post. What I'm talking about here is a simple idea that 4K (or 5K if you like) RAW footage becomes as easy as Prores to use in the entire post ecosystem.

First off, my first feature was shot on 35mm on an ARRI BL. No DI either, so I colortimed via the answer print process. When I tweak a setting now in RCX, my jaw drops on the floor. Always. We have come a long way.

Second off, I own a HVX, have worked with a Varicam. I know how a Digital Cinema camera is different.

Third, I have seen the renderfarm setups at various Hollywood studios during my VFX days and know the power of post machinery.

Finally, I used to work for Softimage and loved DS at the time. An all-in-one tool that SHOULD have been king of the Post world had Avid not thoughtlessly sabotaged it after buying Softimage. Regardless, the online/offline model made sense when the online part was a piece of celluloid, or could only be accessed via REALLY expensive, high-end decks. That's not the world to stick to. That's the model that needs to die.

Yes, I'm testing out Premiere and LOVE it as far as integration with AE goes. But what happens if I want to bring NUKE into the workflow? I don't like the assumption being made by some of y'all, that there is no work happening on the users' end here to sort out the post process.

My issue with the RED Rocket isn't just reliability and cost, but more that its the wrong model for these awesome times. So what am I hoping RED will do? Become king of the Post world? NO! I want them to -

Partner up!

I hope there are conversations happening at the highest levels between nvidia and RED. I hope the engineers are working out best ways to expose the RED API so third party vendors can totally tie into it. I hope the lawyers are getting ready licensing packages for the post industry. RED is ubiquitous now. This is the time to do this. That's my point.

When I first saw an HDR photograph, I thought, wow, if only we could do this for motion pictures. But figured it was impossible as there'd be a timegap between the two exposures. Then, RED came up with HDRx. Since that time, I hold RED to the HIGHEST standard. Expecting them to deliver what I write off as impossible.

Success is transient. Success is not the goal. Evolution is. Revolution is.

I want RED to lead the Post world into its revolution. Its time.

NAB, do not disappoint. Pretty please.

 

[Paul Russell]

yes, let's have a new RR that lives up to Dragon spec, at a reasonable price.

 

[David Battistella]

I can not say that I don't agree with everything you have said.

It's funny. No matter how fast a computer gets there is always a render bar. That's the hard part. Even if the computer power existed, it would still be getting stretched. RED has had some good and bad partnerships over the years, but they do things their own way.

I hear what you are saying. I felt this way in 2007.

I have always been a big fan of streamlining workflow. All I can say is that RED is getting it right and RCX and Rocket are a very good combo and a good thing to add to the investment of a RED camera.

I agree that a less expensive rocket would clear the post path a bit and NAB will tell us alot about the direction. I sense we will all be pleased.

David



David

I want to keep this in the tone and intent Jim started this thread off with. You guys are all saying things that are true, but you are missing the intent of my post. What I'm talking about here is a simple idea that 4K (or 5K if you like) RAW footage becomes as easy as Prores to use in the entire post ecosystem.

First off, my first feature was shot on 35mm on an ARRI BL. No DI either, so I colortimed via the answer print process. When I tweak a setting now in RCX, my jaw drops on the floor. Always. We have come a long way.

Second off, I own a HVX, have worked with a Varicam. I know how a Digital Cinema camera is different.

Third, I have seen the renderfarm setups at various Hollywood studios during my VFX days and know the power of post machinery.

Finally, I used to work for Softimage and loved DS at the time. An all-in-one tool that SHOULD have been king of the Post world had Avid not thoughtlessly sabotaged it after buying Softimage. Regardless, the online/offline model made sense when the online part was a piece of celluloid, or could only be accessed via REALLY expensive, high-end decks. That's not the world to stick to. That's the model that needs to die.

Yes, I'm testing out Premiere and LOVE it as far as integration with AE goes. But what happens if I want to bring NUKE into the workflow? I don't like the assumption being made by some of y'all, that there is no work happening on the users' end here to sort out the post process.

My issue with the RED Rocket isn't just reliability and cost, but more that its the wrong model for these awesome times. So what am I hoping RED will do? Become king of the Post world? NO! I want them to -

Partner up!

I hope there are conversations happening at the highest levels between nvidia and RED. I hope the engineers are working out best ways to expose the RED API so third party vendors can totally tie into it. I hope the lawyers are getting ready licensing packages for the post industry. RED is ubiquitous now. This is the time to do this. That's my point.

When I first saw an HDR photograph, I thought, wow, if only we could do this for motion pictures. But figured it was impossible as there'd be a timegap between the two exposures. Then, RED came up with HDRx. Since that time, I hold RED to the HIGHEST standard. Expecting them to deliver what I write off as impossible.

Success is transient. Success is not the goal. Evolution is. Revolution is.

I want RED to lead the Post world into its revolution. Its time.

NAB, do not disappoint. Pretty please.

 

[Obin Olson]

In the meantime... go shoot something that exceeds your personal expectations. You have the right tool.

Jim[/QUOTE]



And that is EXACTLY what we are doing, taking the biggest risk of our lives...just like you...on a smaller scale though.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Yes indeed, I do expect absolutely no-brainer commoditized 4K Post. Pretty please? I didn't buy an EPIC-X only to have to edit in DNxHD36 etc.

You have to wonder why Peter Jackson works exactly this way: does the entire offline edit in DNxHD, then conforms the 4K files later on (and in truth, much of it gets reduced to 2K due to visual effects). I don't see the need to look at "real" 4K files until the very end of the project, when the conform, titles, and final color is done.

I think the problem is not just rendering and waiting for processors and GPUs to get faster, there are also certain fixed time limits that constrict things like file transfers and backups. My joke in working in the DI business is that I think I spent 25% of my time simply waiting for files to get from here to there (or back again).

Unless and until this process is instant -- or, realistically, 10 times faster than it is today -- 4K and 5K will always have that bottleneck. It's made worse by directors who constantly change the cut all the way up to release time (or air dates), and compounded by numerous other hands that have to have access to the material, sometimes in facilities all over the world. On a big sprawling action picture, it's not unusual for the VFX to be done by six or more companies spread across four or five continents. Having to port (let's say) 2TB' of files over even a fast connection takes a lot of time.

Eventually, faster internal networks, blazingly-fast processors, tons of RAM, and super high-speed bandwidth will relieve a lot of this. But this isn't Red's problem -- it's the computer industry's problem.