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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Stuttering image while Panning

Hi,

I am very happy with normal 24 fps motion blur from film, it gives the film look, the last thing I want to do is make everything look like video motion.

I found all the camera motion & people moving quite disturbing in 'Knowing', had I not wanted to see how the camera performed throughout the film I would have walked out after 10 minutes.

Stephen

Iannis Holwech said:
I might be out of my league with this suggestion so please bear over with me.

First; Here is a white paper repport of a test BBC did last year to find the framerates that eliminate film/motion judder and the ability to capture fast moving objects without judder and smearing in a possible future TV standard.
Click to expand...
 
Stephen Williams said:
had I not wanted to see how the camera performed throughout the film I would have walked out after 10 minutes.
Click to expand...

The motion and stutter looked completely normal to me.

If I wanted to see how the RED ONE camera performed, I would attend a digital projection. If I wanted to see how the local film projector performed, I would attend a film projection.

Of course, since release prints are so much poorer than digital projection, and all our local film projection theaters are poorly focused, dim, and jittery, I stopped attending them 6 years ago when we got 2K.

I'm sure you have a good reason for attending a film projection, but I don't.
 
Meddy MOST said:
OMG... same problem here.
We made some tested today ... I'm from a PAL country and for some obvious reasons we have to use 25 fps.
I was quite frightened to see all this stuttering when panning, as well as some stuttering effect on things moving to fast in the front of the camera (such a hand)...
I look for some infos and I found this thread... I notice that a lot of people are experiencing this problem and I was quite surprised to see it this night by myself...
I have never seen such stuttering in my life (used HPX500, HPX 2100, HVX200 as well as DVX100... lol)
and I thought the camera needed a very good reset to get all the preset out or maybe something was missing on the camera on in FCP setting but after reading all those posts
I concluded that it comes from the camera ... sad... sad ...

Anyway I'll try to use 24fps for testing as well as slow shutter speed maybe different angles ,... and see what is happening then ...
We are using Master Prime By the way...
Click to expand...

The problem I had with pans turned out to be a playback issue with Final Cut. I ran the shots through Apple Cinema Tools, and conformed them to my output frame rate, and everything became smooth.
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi,

I am very happy with normal 24 fps motion blur from film, it gives the film look, the last thing I want to do is make everything look like video motion.

I found all the camera motion & people moving quite disturbing in 'Knowing', had I not wanted to see how the camera performed throughout the film I would have walked out after 10 minutes.

Stephen
Click to expand...
Hi Stephen,

The version I watched did not look noticably bad, strobing wise.

The computer screens in one scene had a flicker on them but I put that down to how they were shot. We've been shooting ads for Nintendo and every one of them has had monitors in them and the camera has picked up the detail very well. I believe they even skipped out overlaying the consoles output as intended because it held up so well in parts. I'm surprised they didn't redo the computer screens in post in Knowing.

I wasn't keen on some of the grading in the movie in places and whether that was a consequence of a lack of dynamic range is questionable, I was very surprised at the sheer amount of dimly lit scenes having chosen the Red camera to shoot with. That being said I was also surprised at how well it handled them. Generally the whole film's look had an odd feel to it that didn't quite seem right, but it wasn't completely to do with the camera. It was a very oppressive film at points, very dim and unappealing. I'd like to see the film displayed digitally as well as pick it up on dvd to watch on a TV screen so I can knowingly compare to other movies.

Paul
 
From the BBC white paper:

objects within the scene at speeds higher than three pixels
per field/frame eliminates all of the additional detail gained by the use of high definition.
Click to expand...

Perhaps Red leverage the technology in RedRay to create a 4k up to 300fps projection standard. Epic FF35 will do 350fps at 2k BTW.

The images may not have that "film look" but perhaps an amazingly detailed look all of their own.

Stefan
 
Daniel Browning said:
I'm sure you have a good reason for attending a film projection, but I don't.
Click to expand...

Hi,

I live in Switzerland, the only option was film projection, seems like a reasonable reason to me.

Stephen
 
PaulClements said:
Hi Stephen,

I wasn't keen on some of the grading in the movie in places and whether that was a consequence of a lack of dynamic range is questionable, I was very surprised at the sheer amount of dimly lit scenes having chosen the Red camera to shoot with. That being said I was also surprised at how well it handled them. Generally the whole film's look had an odd feel to it that didn't quite seem right, but it wasn't completely to do with the camera. It was a very oppressive film at points, very dim and unappealing. I'd like to see the film displayed digitally as well as pick it up on dvd to watch on a TV screen so I can knowingly compare to other movies.

Paul
Click to expand...

Hi Paul,

I felt the low light performance was better than the 'day' performance. I found the motion throughout the film rather unpleasant & the wide shots lacking in resoloution, neither were an issue at all with the 4K material I saw at IBC.

Stephen
 
The stuttering image is one of the reason why I prefer the EVF over the LCD. If "open gate" is not enabled the EVF picture start to stutter during to fast panning in the same way like my final output.
Anybody else uses the EVF for stuttering control?
Marc
 
could it be 4k 1:2 issue?

could it be 4k 1:2 issue?

I heard that maybe it's the 1:2 problem, that if you will shoot 16:9, it wont show this problem? is that true?
Ariel.
 
Yes, this and the "high-speed on wider than 24mm lenses issue" are the two biggest reasons that people starting to badmouth Red One in my country. I'm not saying there are lots of projects shooting on Red as well, but these problems should definitely be addressed before they get out of control.
 
so i have here two videos, which were shot in 3k @ 50fps, 1/50 shutter, ARRi Macro 200 @ T4. Build 20.1.2, project framerate: 25fps
first video is a faster pan and the second one is the slower one....

possible its the prores export or the H264 encoding or it is because my mac display has 60Hz but it looks also on the hd-sdi from the cam not that nice, specially at a commercial where clients looking to a 24 inch or bigger display.....

i have a big hope that stuart could get a look to this issue....

please RED, chime in....

http://dcs.co.at/vids/shutter.mov

http://dcs.co.at/vids/shutter1.mov

regards
rainer
 
so in my case it seems to be the in camera conversion from 50fps to 25fps. if recording with 50fps as project frame rate, the QT looking quite better. single frames looking at 25fps project at 50fps shooting rate also better than the QTs. i think stuart is looking into it....
 
But Sanjin, you can't just tell the director 'sorry, I can only pan at x speed' because the camera won't let me go any faster! :rolleyes5:
 
glik said:
I heard that maybe it's the 1:2 problem, that if you will shoot 16:9, it wont show this problem? is that true?
Ariel.
Click to expand...

No it's not true.

Stuttering image while panning has NOTHING to do with RED. It happens with all the cameras at cinema framerates.

I remember that my old American Cinematographer Manual (i think it was the 6th edition) even had a chapter on this. That was at least 20 years before the RED even existed.
 
mike ogden said:
But Sanjin, you can't just tell the director 'sorry, I can only pan at x speed' because the camera won't let me go any faster! :rolleyes5:
Click to expand...

I would say that your director should learn about panning and stuttering in general and after that lecture he/she can ask you for appropriate panning speed.

Also your director should not be a BULL or BULLY.
 
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