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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Steadicam Group Buy - Select your model

Steadicam Group Buy - Select your model

  • Total voters
    102
hey Vittaly, no sorry I cannot provide any info about anything around isoelastic arms and how they work. there is many things that arent shown by eye, and it takes a lot of calculations and tests to make this work. But hey so far noone ever made anything close to work as well, from the copiers, and I dont even think that its a better arm to be an isoelastic design.
its a matter of taste and pesronal use, and not whats best. Lets just respect the fact that Garret and Tiffen worked a lot around this and leave it there. you dont need it nor it will improove your operating if you just staring .
thanks
 
oups sorry Dave.
Answer to Vitaly, I dont attack , I simply lay down the facts and the trooth. So you can get to know what is used and for what reason. Majority of manyfacturers in China even near 99% always lack in knowledge about what they copy. They go at exibition, take pictures, close ups, and even some buy the products if they are cheap enough to copy them.
that is the case. No more no less..
I will continue on the other thread if you have questions
thanks
 
Kostas and Vitaliy, as stated earlier, please keep this thread about the group buy of the ProLine or L'Aigle. Please post all things concerning the modification or redesign of the Laing M02 in the customization thread.
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Sorry, David.
This talk is not about Laing modifications, it is more about general stuff.
If you like you can ask to split it to separate topic.
I also agree that it is best either in test related topic or separate.

hey Vittaly, no sorry I cannot provide any info about anything around isoelastic arms and how they work.
thanks
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Hmm, You referenced Tiffen patents and told that you can't say anything because of them, if I understand correctly. This is why I asked about specific patents about such arms and their design. If you don't know them, why talk about this?

there is many things that arent shown by eye, and it takes a lot of calculations and tests to make this work.
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Single spring arm is not rocket science in design and with proper software (that manufacturers usually hav) it can be modelled before manufacturing.
Same as three spring arm. But it still requires some tries afterwards due to variations, mostly in actual springs and specifications.

But hey so far noone ever made anything close to work as well, from the copiers, and I dont even think that its a better arm to be an isoelastic design.
its a matter of taste and pesronal use, and not whats best.
Click to expand...

Hmm. How many products you tried personally?

Lets just respect the fact that Garret and Tiffen worked a lot around this and leave it there. you dont need it nor it will improove your operating if you just staring
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I tell you this. What one man made other man can repeat and improve. This is how things work.

Majority of manyfacturers in China even near 99% always lack in knowledge about what they copy. They go at exibition, take pictures, close ups, and even some buy the products if they are cheap enough to copy them.
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Knowing manufacturers slightly closer, I can tell you that you are wrong :-) But in one thing you are right. They are learning, and learning fast.
 
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Vitally Iam sorry but you seem to be sure about many things assuming most.
In any way I dont want to ask an argument here.
Iam totally aware about simulation software, mechanical engineering with a degree, and alot innfo and hands on CNC machining and building.
Iam not going to even comenty on your comment about improoving the one spring G50-70 DESIGN from a chinese manufacturer.
And sorry to say , I can even take a picture from them when they take pictures hahahahaha.
Reverse engineering is the method they use 100% of the time.
I have flown many chinese rigs, just didnt fly this one. But I dont need to fly it to tell the pros and cons some are very obvious.
if you are here to question my experience with steadicam operating well thats no problem.
I have flown more than 10 top rigs and different configurations of rigs, and also owned a fair amount of rigs too, including 3a, provid, baer bel sled and arm,Movcam, and have flied pro, glidcam, sachtler, XCS, MKV, Action products, and many small chinese brands that pop out that I cant even recall the companies as they close as fast as they appear on the market. over the last 14 years..
go ahead , have a go, I still not sure what your intentions are on this, is it buying a rig for your use? buying and imprrove ? or maybe try and make your own for production?
if its the last , good luck.
thanks
 
Iam not going to even comenty on your comment about improoving the one spring G50-70 DESIGN from a chinese manufacturer.
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Never say never :-)

And sorry to say , I can even take a picture from them when they take pictures hahahahaha.
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Anything wrong with them making pictures?
Reversing is that each and every industry did before they became leaders.
Check history of Kapanese and Korean companies.

Reverse engineering is the method they use 100% of the time.
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And this is just not true.

I have flown many chinese rigs, just didnt fly this one. But I dont need to fly it to tell the pros and cons some are very obvious.
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Hmm. You claim to be professional, yet professionals (100% of the time :-) ) are modest and try not to make generalizations and judge things they are not sure about.

I still not sure what your intentions are on this, is it buying a rig for your use? buying and imprrove ? or maybe try and make your own for production?
Click to expand...

My intentions are simple - help Laing promote and improve their products :-)

P.S. I really think that we must not derail this topic, and return to tech talk, as you have many interesting to tell, I am sure.
 
well Vitally what can I say..
no problem and good luck again.
Iam not going to take this to a pesronal level.
I dont make generalizations about anything.
its plain experience, ask an experienced op that also knows how to mantain his rig in a good shape, and he can tell you about flows of a cheap or even poor construcrtion rig by eye to start with.
Now at my 48 I have rest my case in operating, and concentrating on engineering.
Simple facts.
you can search patents by using google.
regards.
 
Kostas I was hoping you'd discuss what you can tell from looking at the Proline video, since this is the most interesting one for me.

You said above you can tell certain things just by seeing the construction, and you also said both rigs would not be accepted for hire? Would you mind elaborating?
 
PRO-LINE video thoughts from first look.
To start with the arm, at the end of the video I see that with the current load the system runs with the springs at the bottom end, so I would ask if the adjustment was for full max load? if it was then this arm operationally cannot really support this weight and the operator will use a lot of force to boom up , more contact more errors. The design is based on 3a 3 spring and its reliable and can be very strong lift method if the structure of the arm can support it, which in that case looks that it does. over all it looks good..
the vest to arm adjustment for this kinda weight camera-rig combinations really need to be the type that can be done with full load on. the reason is that the vest structure always tilts a little less or more with heavier sets and you will need to do this with the rig on to make the correct angle, so the arm doesnt fly towards or away from you. But of cource you can get it with this system as well, just think that you need to readjust a few times after testing with load.
the sled 2 inch post.It looks quite rigid the gimbal looks to be good, as for the precission I cannot comment as I havent seen a test . Also they refer to dynamic balance on the vid but I havent seen this in the video.
Good to have a drop in cable design.
the top stage of the sled , looks again good, I would test for rigidy , this is some problem most cheaper systems have and even much more establised companies had with various models.
so in other words it has to be solid with no play when locked after balancing the camera, because if they arent then you will have problems in dynamic balance and at extreme angle shots bad balance.
I would also improve the bottom rod clamp that supports the rods for the battery system if to fly 2 bats at the back, anything that might flexes can cause trouble.I just got the impression that its not as rigid but I might be wrong.
I would also make smaller and thinner junction box as in some angles while operating the box looks like it can mess up with your gimbal handle and hand. Keep those to minimum size is a clever thing and even mounting them in a different way is also an option.
the electronics seem to work well with the power distribution so thats a good thing.
the vest looks confortable but this is something that can or cant work out for different body structures, but it looks adjustable enough to do the job.
that is my first impression.
I wouldnt recoment to set a red one with a back battery like the way shown, as any vibration of the back system , the v mount, the cradle, or anything gets loose easily , can chane your rigs balance and add vibrations. Keep this as small and compact as possible.
last I will add that you will sooner or later add lens motors so Iam not sure but you will need to add somehow a power line for the motor rc so investicate if there is an option or solution from pro-line.
the system looks solid enough and a good first rig.
regards
 
Brett,
In the NYC market full rate steadi ops tend to have the GPI Pro rig, a full size Tiffen Steadicam, or another make in the same price bracket. Period. It's a very small niche field, and it takes years of constant work to develop what I would consider minimum professional level skills. The gear is very expensive. If the arms use springs, they are titanium springs that cost thousands of dollars. The gimbals cost thousands of dollars. The top stage costs thousands. They are all made at extremely low production numbers at extreme precision and cost. At the same time union steadi ops and ac's are some of the biggest hardware snobs in the business. Many UPMs and coordinators are very equipment savvy. Eveyone has come up through the ranks, and all have been disappointed by inexperienced, inexpensive steadi ops with less than optimal gear. So there is a trend.

Many pro ops would tell you to start with a week long class from SOA, or Maine workshops or the Tiffen big rig workshop. There you will get the opportunity to try these high dollar rigs.

Having said that, you have to start someplace, and if you want to fly a rigged Epic/Scarlet/alexa/MX you will need a full size rig. The ProLine and L'Aigle are priced to permit you to practice with full weight rigs until you start to get the better rate jobs.

If you become a good steadi op with these rigs you also have the ability to provide steadi shots for the fraction of the price the established ops will work for. IF you are a producer/filmmaker this is great. If you want to be a full time steadi op you will soon learn the limitations of the equipment. I don't know what they are but they will be there. You will find a limitation to the jobs you get. Because one day of a full on union production costs how much? Will a producer risk the cost of a full day by hiring a steadi op who does not have all the top line gear all the other regular ops have? You may not agree, but this is very much part of the business. There are expectations.

But this group buy is a great deal and a great way to start to fly an Epic and heavier cameras. Just remember, if you are Larry McConkey you can show up on set with anything. Until you are that guy you do have to live with market perceptions and expectations.

I suspect this is what Konstas was eluding to.
 
Karl Kim said:
But this group buy is a great deal and a great way to start to fly an Epic and heavier cameras. Just remember, if you are Larry McConkey you can show up on set with anything. Until you are that guy you do have to live with market perceptions and expectations.

I suspect this is what Konstas was eluding to.
Click to expand...

Speaking of Larry McConkey, check out an example of the amazing steadicam work he did in Hugo. http://www.themovingarts.com/video-amazing-steadicam-work-in-hugo/
It's one long, two minute shot. It's inspiring for those of us aspiring.
:)
 
Karl Kim said:
Brett,
In the NYC market full rate steadi ops tend to have the GPI Pro rig, a full size Tiffen Steadicam, or another make in the same price bracket. Period. It's a very small niche field, and it takes years of constant work to develop what I would consider minimum professional level skills. The gear is very expensive. If the arms use springs, they are titanium springs that cost thousands of dollars. The gimbals cost thousands of dollars. The top stage costs thousands. They are all made at extremely low production numbers at extreme precision and cost. At the same time union steadi ops and ac's are some of the biggest hardware snobs in the business. Many UPMs and coordinators are very equipment savvy. Eveyone has come up through the ranks, and all have been disappointed by inexperienced, inexpensive steadi ops with less than optimal gear. So there is a trend.

Many pro ops would tell you to start with a week long class from SOA, or Maine workshops or the Tiffen big rig workshop. There you will get the opportunity to try these high dollar rigs.

Having said that, you have to start someplace, and if you want to fly a rigged Epic/Scarlet/alexa/MX you will need a full size rig. The ProLine and L'Aigle are priced to permit you to practice with full weight rigs until you start to get the better rate jobs.

If you become a good steadi op with these rigs you also have the ability to provide steadi shots for the fraction of the price the established ops will work for. IF you are a producer/filmmaker this is great. If you want to be a full time steadi op you will soon learn the limitations of the equipment. I don't know what they are but they will be there. You will find a limitation to the jobs you get. Because one day of a full on union production costs how much? Will a producer risk the cost of a full day by hiring a steadi op who does not have all the top line gear all the other regular ops have? You may not agree, but this is very much part of the business. There are expectations.

But this group buy is a great deal and a great way to start to fly an Epic and heavier cameras. Just remember, if you are Larry McConkey you can show up on set with anything. Until you are that guy you do have to live with market perceptions and expectations.

I suspect this is what Konstas was eluding to.
Click to expand...

Great post, and very true.

The amount of abuse these rigs go through on a daily basis, as a full time op, is very high. Ops are well paid, and equipment failure on set can severely damage one's reputation. You need to have failure proof gear, and duplicates of every cable and almost every accessory. Only one steadicam operator is hired, so if the steadicam goes down, the shoot is screwed.

These rigs are probably ok for practicing, and ultra low budget shoots. But by accepting paid work with them, you're putting yourself and the entire production at risk, which I think is a selfish thing to do.
 
Alex Kornreich said:
Great post, and very true.

The amount of abuse these rigs go through on a daily basis, as a full time op, is very high. Ops are well paid, and equipment failure on set can severely damage one's reputation. You need to have failure proof gear, and duplicates of every cable and almost every accessory. Only one steadicam operator is hired, so if the steadicam goes down, the shoot is screwed.

These rigs are probably ok for practicing, and ultra low budget shoots. But by accepting paid work with them, you're putting yourself and the entire production at risk, which I think is a selfish thing to do.
Click to expand...

Alex glad to see you checking in on the thread again. What are your thoughts on the respective rigs? What would you expect to fail first/most often with these rigs? What might one do to guard against that?
 
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