Steadicam differences...???

[constantine Tirintzis]

Back to steadicam.
There are some things you have to consider with different systems. The rules are the same.But they are not applying to everyone the same way.
A good system is an accurately machined system, with frinctionles gimbal and arm, with minimum effort to boom up and down, solid rock stage with easy adjustment, and efficient electronics for the specs given. Ergonomics and simplicity of design.
However for instance WKlassen backmount vests that have the best reputation dont always please all operators, and sometimes they feel strange.Same goes with arms, gimbal designs, yokes, post diameter, you name it.
Thats because different ops with different body sizes and shapes, different likes and habbits, are to jastify if a system is better than another or not. Some ops like the PRO ARM some the D70 some the AC arm and some like the old 3A upgraded arms from AUS thats something that is personal taste.
So one has to go with this.
But things like Simplicity in design, quality, functionality and compatibility is always there in good rigs.
Action Products have set a high standard in all of these factors mentioned above and accomplished one more goal. BEING ORIGINAL.
Why? Because Brian has designed a silky smooth arm that works with a totally different to all the rest of the arms in the industry way and mechanics, not to mention the design and looks.
Because Brian designed a different stage with power plates and other ingenious little somethings that make a unique system.
Because Brian made a backmounted Vest that works very well, and if you for any reason beer or food put some weight on the vest can be adjusted to this, rather than having a made to fit back mount. The gimbal and machining is top notch and frictionless and the 2 ich post uses the best CF filament wound tubing to make a solid rock stabilizer.
And at the price it starts selling there is no competitor even close to its superior quality and abilities . Not to mention the tens of upgrades you can jump in when you have more cash.
I do not work for action products but I have to tell you the reality.And Brian deserves to sell his products for these and people should see this open minded with out brand names musts ..
So if you dont mind buying other than Tiffen, AP is by far the best rig in its price range offering what only the Big boys can deliver, its actually a big boy its self.
My 2 cents is support innovation and truly good products not just brands.
Saying that Tiffen has some really nice rigs, and innovations as well just in case someone thinks I dont like Tiffen.

 

[Gustavo Penna]

I NEVER compared Arri with Epic. you guys came up with that.
I Own A RED ONE and i love it. I would not put my money on alexa just to get 3 outputs that my 7D doesn't have for 80.000 Euros more.
I already Paid my deposit for a stage 2 Epic. & i think that in this case is the right choice. but i can still guaranty you that you'll see Alexa taking many jobs away from Epic just because producers will try to go with alexa just because of the brand name, thats it. and you guys know what i mean if you remember Public Enemies. why such a big budget would go with that camera with that disgusting look just to stick to the camera name that the studio demanded had to be four letters. and thats a fact. it still happens in most of those big jobs, if you want to go with a certain studio, the whole thing has to be shot in a sony. thats it. i didn't make that. thats a well known fact.

Now I can see.... neither of you got my point on the comparisons within the two cars.
What I tried to explain. is that the BIG producers care about that. that's it.

I happen To have a: Fully loaded PRO. a Fully LOADED MK-V AR with PRO arm and Klassen Custom Vest, and a Master Elite. So i know what i'm talking about. and thats why i said at the end of my post that what matters, is not the Arrow or the Bow. what matters is the Indian.
Now lets switch the topic a little bit.
Lets talk About The most famous movies ever made. and the most famous steadicam shots ever on a variety of Big well known productions. and lets do a count and find out how many MK-V's, Pro's, Steadicam's TM or XCS's where operated by those famous operators to get those shots done.
I know good fellas could possibly had been shot with a glidecam Gold (why not, if Larry is simply the best) or any of the other systems that you guys mention. but unfortunately history will show that those rigs where the BIG FOUR.

And yeah Steve Das. get the actioncam. it looks amazing for the money. I have tried a couple but not their latest models, one from them being from an operator that i meet in jamaica, however this operator is looking to buy a Used Master Elite or Film, thats why i suggested you to think that maybe could be better getting on a bigger and beefier rig.

 

[constantine Tirintzis]

Gustavo for one more time you are missing to total point here. Because the point was what to buy as cheap as possible but to have a decent rig with features that can support a red one and Epic.
Noone has missed your point nor your not very nice comments about being stuburn, its just that you had nothing to say for the main question of the post rather than sell your MS.
And about the Epic Alexa , it wasnt directing to you, there are also other people made comments in this post.
IF the person who wrote this post had 150k to spent then your opinion would be helpfull.
But in this case you have argued with no point.
My suggestion was to say that instead of getting a brand name with lower capabilities which is hardly going to give you any jobs since its a lower end rig, to get a ruther complete and proved solid rock good product like action cam.
If you have tried the system you would probably stop comparing it with glidcam or Ebay items, but you probably havent.
As about MK-V well you know the stories.. its not just stories.. if you have any respect at all on innovation..you would know what to not do.
Many unhappy AR owners, and a non 100% function able rig costing an arm and a leg,only to prove how someone can benefit from someone elses intellectual property.
Not my style.
4 letter camera name .... let me think.... EPIC? ha ha ha
Just kidding

 

[Brian D. Goff]

What I tried to explain. is that the BIG producers care about that. that's it.

This could just be an US / Europe issue (I live and work in Europe). I've never been asked what kind of Rig I use - Never. But I have been asked for my Show reel almost every time a well known DoP or Director was on the gig - I think that is a better way to decide to hire someone or not - anyone can buy the most expensive gear, but not everyone can use it properly....

 

[constantine Tirintzis]

well said Brian.Keep up the good work.

 

[Paolo Tinari]

I worked with a steadicam operator in sicily who works with a 20 years old handmade steadicam, rusty and ugly as hell. His showreel is perfect (and not stabilized in post) and he's constantly working.

 

[Mark Collins]

(Well my opinion is that the Alexa is a far better camera system, not because it costs more but because of the way it's designed.)

there is going to be a conclusion to this when both systems are actual out and running.
At the moment you cant compare , you can only compare finished production models.
And please explain what do you think is more superior in design on the Alexa that you think is making it a better camera?Maybe in another post?

I will get back to you on this, I'm just in pre-production right now and can't do long posts....

 

[Gustavo Penna]

Im sorry I didn't answer the original question, the arguments in the first page took the conversation to a whole different angle.
And yeah Steve Das. get the actioncam. it looks amazing for the money. I have tried a couple of them but not their latest models, one from them being from an operator that i meet in jamaica, however this operator is looking to buy a Used Master Elite or Film, thats why i suggested you, to think that maybe could be better getting on a bigger and beefier rig.

And i agree 300 % with Brian D. Goff. gear is NOTHING. its sad that we can't say the same about the politics of this industry.

as i said in my earlier posts.

it's not the arrow...... it's the indian what really matters!

 

[Gustavo Penna]

Gustavo for one more time you are missing to total point here. Because the point was what to buy as cheap as possible but to have a decent rig with features that can support a red one and Epic.
Noone has missed your point nor your not very nice comments about being stuburn, its just that you had nothing to say for the main question of the post rather than sell your MS.
And about the Epic Alexa , it wasnt directing to you, there are also other people made comments in this post.
IF the person who wrote this post had 150k to spent then your opinion would be helpfull.
But in this case you have argued with no point.
My suggestion was to say that instead of getting a brand name with lower capabilities which is hardly going to give you any jobs since its a lower end rig, to get a ruther complete and proved solid rock good product like action cam.
If you have tried the system you would probably stop comparing it with glidcam or Ebay items, but you probably havent.
As about MK-V well you know the stories.. its not just stories.. if you have any respect at all on innovation..you would know what to not do.
Many unhappy AR owners, and a non 100% function able rig costing an arm and a leg,only to prove how someone can benefit from someone elses intellectual property.
Not my style.
4 letter camera name .... let me think.... EPIC? ha ha ha
Just kidding

Hey Constantine. You sound like you have spent way too much time listening to the fictional rumors about the AR in the steadicam Forum. The one and only guy that Always complained and that problems with his AR was the only Guy that wanted to make the AR work on a sled made by anothe manufacturer. therefore ending up in perpetual frustration and troubleshooting. however i also happen to have the posts where he was praising the AR and where they where talking wonders about it on the articles from RENT when they use his AR in the entire feature.
I Dont want to go soo much in to that, since i couldnt care less about his problems for trying to invent what is already invented.

As Myself and mostly ALL the AR owners we have nothing to say about problems with our AR's because we simply have none.

I cant Believe how many great shots i have achieved with it, and how much time it has saved me on set.

now please before you keep criticizing the AR please explain to me how this pictured on your shoulder (i dont know how to call it) works?

whats the point on carrying all this weight on your Arms because i know its totally impossible to balance even if you put 4 RED batteries in the back.

 

[constantine Tirintzis]

Gustavo. It wasnt an argument in the first place.
I d tried to help a fellow young op or future op do what I think is a good choice.
and I still stand by this.
Defenatly its the op who does make a difference and not the tools, it just helps if you have reasonable good rigs to make your life easier and specially when you start, to not grow bad operating habbits because of the odd equipment.
But actioncam is not glidecam, nor flycam, nor an ebay knock off.
And Brian is not the guy that designs knock offs.
I believe his rigs should be way more expensive, but they are not, they are reasonable cheap with the best possible quality made. and great design and features.
You can produce solid rock shots witha wide range of cameras and not just limited weight rigs.
No hard feelings anyway.
Best

 

[Pawel Achtel]

BORIS walks in to a Mercedes Benz dealer and says how much is this M class this M550 suv?
the salesman responds, they start at $57.590.
BORIS Replies, how come I'TS SOOOOO EXPENSIVE!
I can get a KIA sorento for 20.995
....

Ha ha ha, bad example, Gustavo.

Having owned brand new M class, I can tell you that KIA (and in fact just about any recognised brand) beats the M in EVERY possible department. For start, it is much more reliable as it does not usually require 30+ serious repairs in the first couple of years of usage. It is safer: has much better breaks. There is simply no comparison. I'd pick up a KIA even at $57,590 and would not buy a brand new M class even if it was free because the cost of ownership would make it still more expensive (how about $4000 for an oil change).

I think there are good products and bad products at every price level and cheap does not always mean inferior. RED ONE is another good example.

Of course, if one knows little about the products, using price as a guide gives one a better chance to get a good quality item. But, there are plenty of examples where this is simply not true.

 

[constantine Tirintzis]

Gustavo your answers.
About the AR I know who you refering too, and the story however I got my info from a dutch guy who also has the latest MK-V sled and bought the AR brand new.
So the combination was a complete MKV-AR rig.
Very often his rig was going crazy ,out of control.
He never got any solutions from MK-V either but only excuses. There is also many complains from other gentleman that sold their ARs.
I dont know , maybe they have fixed the problems later, but my friend when you are getting capital from customers with many 000 YOU SHOULD DELIVER.

Now about the Machine. The Machine holds the red one in a front offset of around 120-170 mm adjustable. It works with light lenses and light read one configuration.
It has a long tail again adjustable that you place the cradle and the battery and if you like other add ons. You either do that or if you dont want the cradle , which a lot of red one users hate you will just have to add counterweights or battery weight , but generally counter weight.
The back offset can be as long as 600 mm .
the red one sits on a rotational stage and its balanced 50/50 so when you rotate it there is no weight shift.
The handle system is wide , and offers big leverage.
That is purelly because though you can balance the camera with the back end, its will also be top heavy. And thats how you have control off this. In fact you put very little effort with your hands.
Do your calculations.
Generally you can work with a slight heavy front system with no problem if you want a shorter tail.
Its not made for every shot or a everyday rig. Its made to be used when you need to do hand held 360s on shoulder fast , or other moves that cannot be performed easy, however its kinda heavy , but what its much more stable when in sjoulder mode and produces much smoother footage.
I hope I have answered your questions. Impossible is not my cap of tea.
Look at the video. then you will see its possible.
Thank you for your questions
PS if you like I can put ypou in contact with the fellow AR operator , and refer you as well to some other interesting articles about how MKV was behaving to customers, and the shut up deals, I mean its there and you already read most of them.
Maybe you were one of the lucky early owners , or they have just improved.
But I still dont like the idea of stealing ideas .
Best
EDIT: man show me where I said something wrong in my advices for a new system, in fact I wasnt even refering to you at most posts until the time you have mentioned my name, and made all your little offensive comments about stuburn people and such
I just read all the posts from the start. ha ha ha anyway....
Since its my birthday today , I forgive you ha ha ha
45 is a dangerous age to get upset ha ha ha ha
best

 

[Gustavo Penna]

Happy B-Day my Man.. Wish you the very best On your 45 orbits around the sun. Im sorry if you felt ofended by The stubborn thing. I never ever intended to do any harm to any one of you guys.

Enjoy your day!

 

[constantine Tirintzis]

thank you and the very best to you too.
Regards

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Also you are wrong about edurance that you get more with a Zephyr, sometimes heavier rigs (higher end) arent that much more heavy BUT there are Wayyyy more confortable with better ergonomics that allow the operator to fly longer times.
Back mounted vests, e.t.c. which by the way Action products do very well.
Best

Well that's possible - but the heavier monitor is adding weight and that's what I'm commenting on - by heavier rig I meant heavier set-up including accessories- I'm sure I'm right that more weight makes for less shooting time.

 

[constantine Tirintzis]

When the difference is huge maybe yes, but there are many factors, you will get to know when you try different make and quality rigs.the way the weight is distributed to your body, and all the good or bad geometry, materials, padding, e.t.c. all are big factors for a long lasting endurance on a rig.
Because we are talking at generally good quality items here you probably wont have problems. But still, have a look at the differences side by side.
Best regards

 

[Mark Collins]

(Well my opinion is that the Alexa is a far better camera system, not because it costs more but because of the way it's designed.)

there is going to be a conclusion to this when both systems are actual out and running.
At the moment you cant compare , you can only compare finished production models.
And please explain what do you think is more superior in design on the Alexa that you think is making it a better camera?Maybe in another post?

I'll add more to this list here, but the main answer is that the Alexa is not prone to "RED Moments". The film I directed this past weekend, we shot Red because it was more or less the only camera available to us. We probably wasted about an hour and a half each day just waiting on the camera to work properly. In colder weather it starts to freeze and shut down, inside it starts to overheat, it randomly crashes on us. Not to mention the minute long start-up time, the confusing menu system and the absolute lack of balance on the camera.

We had to go handheld for a number of shots, and my DP had to take a 5 minute break after almost every shot because the camera is not balanced at all. He mentioned that a Panavision Gold, which weigh's more than the Red by a lot, he could do handheld on no problem for hours on end, because the camera is completely balanced. It's things like that that make a huge difference on set.

With the Alexa, it's all environmentally sealed, meaning better response in different temperatures, it shots in Apple ProRes, making it awesome for editing. It's better balanced, lighter and smaller than the Red.

Another issue we had with the Red that I don't think we would have gotten with the Alexa is that on the Red, our EVF, the 1st AC's monitor, the dolly's grips monitor, my monitor, and the DMT's laptop, all had a different looking image from the same Raw file, so we have no idea what to trust. That's not good at all.

 

[constantine Tirintzis]

Hey Mark, Iam not going to jump into this as I havent got the knowledge for the camera performance and specs, I believe there are other people to answer this on this forum as its made around red. As far as Balance though it all depends on how and with what configuration you use the camera , with what rigs, and with what accessories, e.t.c.
I have seen a lot of (under my opinion) very poor set ups considering balance, and Iam not talking about cheap rigs either.
People seem to take very seriously some matters that arent that important for the balance mostly because everyone has habits they dont want to get rid off, and on the other hand they seem to miss out in other very important points believing they have a good balanced rig.If you search this forum you will get many photos that are showing (again under my opinion) unacceptable set ups, with batteries and hard drives mounted above the camera and a ton of other accessories mounted all around the camera like for a beauty like composition , overcoming all possible rules about low CG and leverage and such all set ups for hand held and shoulder.
I can understand that some of them are made like this to serve quick change to sticks from handheld but they are still unacceptable, and I am truelly surprised every time I see something like this coming from very respected i the business companies.
But Iam not going to point this out in detail as I really dont like to start wars.
My experience with red one is that it can be set up and balanced really nicelly for shoulder shooting as long as you know what you are doing.
DPs may be really good for DPing but that doesnt always mean they are good in physics as well as setting up different configurations.
There are pros and cons to every camera set up, and its down to personal taste and availability of the correct tools as well as knowledge to do the best.
Other than that all the rest you mentioned I have no opinion, good to know what redusers might have to say about this, or even the makers of this camera, and I have no opinion on Alexa either, as I never ever had played with one.
bUT AS for ARRI cameras I had a fair amount of use from 16,, to 35mm and yet I have seen poor and good set ups for the job, but generally good build cameras with good ergonomics, however still dependable on good all over configurations to work at max.
Thank you

 

[constantine Tirintzis]

And before someone starts giving mea hard time about my rigs, please know that Iam perfectly aware of the fact that the Machine is made to keep the camera high , BUT , there are many other things about it that DO balance the camera really well, even if it sits high WAY better than conventional rigs.And dont forget that itsmade for certain shots and not intended for endurance nor all shots.
On the other hand to those who think that the Gangster rig has the same disadvantage, I will say that even if the camera sits on a 38.1 mm tube a stage because of the adjustment of the shoulder pad angle and the adjustment of the shoulder pad in one more axis the camera ends up sitting if not the same 5mm higher than other set ups.
So you can shoot with a viewfinder very well. But it also has other points that are made for better balance.

 

[Peter Mosiman]

I'll add more to this list here, but the main answer is that the Alexa is not prone to "RED Moments". The film I directed this past weekend, we shot Red because it was more or less the only camera available to us. We probably wasted about an hour and a half each day just waiting on the camera to work properly. In colder weather it starts to freeze and shut down, inside it starts to overheat, it randomly crashes on us. Not to mention the minute long start-up time, the confusing menu system and the absolute lack of balance on the camera.

We had to go handheld for a number of shots, and my DP had to take a 5 minute break after almost every shot because the camera is not balanced at all. He mentioned that a Panavision Gold, which weigh's more than the Red by a lot, he could do handheld on no problem for hours on end, because the camera is completely balanced. It's things like that that make a huge difference on set.

With the Alexa, it's all environmentally sealed, meaning better response in different temperatures, it shots in Apple ProRes, making it awesome for editing. It's better balanced, lighter and smaller than the Red.

Another issue we had with the Red that I don't think we would have gotten with the Alexa is that on the Red, our EVF, the 1st AC's monitor, the dolly's grips monitor, my monitor, and the DMT's laptop, all had a different looking image from the same Raw file, so we have no idea what to trust. That's not good at all.

I'm not going to lie, I don't usually chime in on stuff like this but your post really bothers me.

First off, I am going to give you and your crew the benefit of the doubt about the fact that you guys have worked with the Red One before and you guys know the camera inside and out. However, there are a number of statements that you make that prove otherwise, so I can't really do that.
-Your comment about confusing menus is ridiculous. Before my first Red One shoot, I studied all the material I could find about the menu system and things that can happen to the Red in different weather/temperatures and the importance of using a certified build over a newer beta build. If you're DP/AC knew the camera well before going on set, there should be no problems finding things in the menus.
-Now, I live in Chicago and we have a very diverse climate here. I have been on shoots as a cinematographer in cold winter and hot/95% humidity days. Just like pretty much any camera, you have to be prepared for the shooting circumstances and I won't go into detail here about what those are because there are many other threads that, suffice to say, delve into that subject matter. I will say that on the number of RED shoots I have worked on, very few have had issues. Of those issues, we knew how to fix them and were up and running only a short while later. So to your "RED moments" comment, I say be more prepared, just like you should/would with any other camera system and you'll have great success.
-If you want to shoot in Apple ProRes, then you obviously have never had the pleasure of witnessing amazing things by having shot in the RAW format and any other camera should suffice for your needs if you are not looking for one of the biggest benefits that the RED One has.
-In terms of balance, I know what you mean. I DP/OPed a short where I did a lot of it handheld and it was very tiring. However, I did not have access to a rig that allowed me to properly balance the camera in the first place so I don't blame the camera for that. Even though the Alexa has a built in shoulder mount, it doesn't mean that the camera is always balanced on your shoulder, you have to rig it so that it is, which is common knowledge for every camera system out there.
-When it comes to getting a different look on every monitor, well that has to do with improperly calibrated monitors. I have never been on a set with that many monitors but I have been on one with 2 different kinds of monitors and they had different images until we calibrated both of them, then they looked very similar(one of them rendered blacks differently than the other so I never expected them to match exactly).

Anyhow, it's also important to have experience with the Alexa in order to give an appropriate account of how nice you think the camera is and its features. Personal, working experience. If you have done so than I'm glad and impressed, but I'm assuming that you haven't based on the fact that they are hard enough to get for professional-high end shoots.

Cheers.

PS. I mean no harm by this post, just my reaction to your statements. And sorry for derailing the thread, had to speak my mind.