Starter Audio Package Advice

[Michael Thompson]

So we are just getting started as a production team using Red. We currently have a Red Epic and Scarlett both scheduled to be upgraded to Dragon asap. After several shoots with the camera getting used to it I have finally had enough of just using a condenser mic attached to the camera. I am hoping for some feedback on whether the equipment I am looking at will work well with the Red and if there are any cheaper options that should work just as well. So after doing some research I have come across a Lav mic package (Sennheiser ew 100-ENG G3) which appears to be a good starting point at least for the wireless transmitter and receiver. The kit also comes with a plug on XLR transmitter which I feel would work good with the boom mic that I currently do not have XLR cables for. Another concern is that I want to make sure I have my mind in the right place on recording audio. In the past I have typically used cameras with XLR inputs built on them and I know the red has the smaller inputs on the back I just want to make sure how many sound devices I can run into this camera because I keep reading people saying you can record using the 3.5mm input on the camera and I have never used that method in the past on any other camera. I have looked at the Meizler Audio Cable which provides 2 XLR ports from the audio port built on the red. I am still curious what the red's audio ports are called and if those are the only inputs you can record through, I know the +1 adapter adds another.

I am interested in the Countryman B6 .1" diameter lav mic because of its size, and the Zoom H4n recorder as an external secondary audio option. As for mixers and recorders I am leaning towards the 664 field mixer though it is very expensive. I have looked at the 702T field recorder as well and I know the 664 is primarily a mixer and my recorded audio will probably be much better with the 702T. Should I get both? Would the 664 be good enough all around? Are there cheaper options that would work just as well?

Thank you I appreciate all feedback and am interested to see what other good options are out there!

 

[Arnold F.]

I'm afraid the answer to this is more or less the same as it was the last time you asked, although I realize it's a little different this time. It's very broad with many variables. It's like saying you'd like to do your own dentistry and asking which drill to get. I would not recommend doing your own dentistry. In any case, I'll try to help with some specific questions/answers.

Many people, including myself, have used the Sennheiser wireless sets with some success, at least until we started getting better jobs and needed better gear. Then people usually go to Lectrosonics, which are much more expensive.

The Countryman B6 is a popular, professionally-used, good quality mic. Some mixers may prefer others as a matter of taste or need for the type of work they do. When I mixed reality I used Sanken COS-11 and the B6's. Often it came down not the the audio quality or differences between the two, but which mic would work better with the clothes talent was wearing.

You can record into the two mini inputs on the Scarlet and Epic with the right cables (and with attention to proper gain structure from device to device - an important subject that practically no amount of counseling here at REDUser can properly teach).

The Meizler cable is only for use with the Meizler module, unless I'm mistaken.

The difference in audio quality between the SD664 and the 702T would probably be negligible. The more important differences are the interfaces, functionality and the amount of inputs, obviously. As I said in response to your earlier question, it will depend on what kind of work you do. If it's simple narrative then the 702T might be fine (with a mixer in front of it). If you do reality then the 664 would be better, although you cannot be a camera operator and do sound with multiple sources at the same time.

These days, even small films typically multi-track so, without a mixer preceding a 702T in the signal path, any two track recorder is limited to, well, two tracks.

Another option to consider (if you really must buy sound equipment without knowledge about it) would be to buy a 302 or 442. The former mixes 3 channels down to two, the latter (which I think may only be had used at this point) is a four channel mixer with multiple outputs but with two main buses. It would be appropriate to use for mixing down to a 2-channel recorder like a Zoom or 702T. How you'd carry and operate it while carrying and operating a camera I couldn't say. Having done both jobs professionally I can say it would be absolutely impossible for me.

I'm sorry if this sounds discouraging. Camera and audio are two separate, full-time things and there's no getting around it. Professional field audio is an inter-disciplinary craft involving electricity, sound theory, microphone characteristics, radio, acoustics, and digital recording, in addition to what it takes to do audio on a film/tv set (which, incidentally, frequently involve being ignored and then blamed when something goes wrong!). The proliferation of little audio devices you see in ads at camera websites/forums (none of which real audio guys ever use) seem to encourage folks to think it's easy. Unfortunately, you cannot always just buy two things and connect them they way you usually can with stereo components you get at Best Buy.

You have said you are getting started as a production "team." In my experience, that team is not complete without audio. Actually, insofar as all you really need are a camera guy and a sound guy to make something, they would be the first two on the team, with everyone else coming after. No sound, no team, at least not that I've ever seen.

 

[Stephen Lovett]

Hi Michael,

Arnold gives good advice.

My policy has been to focus on all other aspects of production, but just cut a check to a talented and experienced sound professional.

That doesn't mean that I don't own a Sennheiser 416 and boom pole, some lav's etc. but I only use those if I absolutely have to, my first choice is to hire a professional.

If you are bound and determined to do this yourself, I'd do some research, and then contact http://www.trewaudio.com/ the guys at Coffey really know their stuff, and you can rent before you buy.

Good luck,

Steve

 

[Arnold F.]

I've just re-read my post and want to apologize again (in this separate post, instead of editing the first one) for the repetitive admonitions about doing two jobs at once. Probably saying it once would suffice. I think I tend to go back to it over and over again because of an undeniable belief amongst camera guys (which I am) that sound is a secondary thing or that it comes down to the sample and bit rates. They sometimes even get mad when you say it isn't - there is always that tension there.

 

[Doug Beatty]

Arnold's right.

I would ask myself 'why' instead of 'what' I would need to buy first. If you don't know why you need the equipment you think you need, then it's time to re-assess the situation. Take a visit to your local audio house and they can probably steer you in the right direction and explain the pitfalls.

All that said, you can read all the books and forum recommendations in the world but you won't get better until you get out in the field and hear for yourself what works best for your needs.

 

[Christopher Mills]

point one: Agree that a team is a sound dept and a camera dept, at its core..
that can be two people.. but you physically can not do a good job of both by yourself.

Point 2.. a 664 is far above a bag only tool.. it is absolutely capable of being the core of a sound cart for full feature recording.
it does top out at 48.048Hz sample rate.. but that is all that is needed in feature film world.

a 702t sounds great, but is severely limited by only having 2 tracks..

it's well worth the extra $2000 for the extra capabilities of the 664 to begin with, and the ability to expand tracks and controls with the add on module later.

I use a mixture of Sennheiser G series and Lectrosonics wireless at the moment, and the Lectros are better.
However, the Sennheisers, when equiped with Countryman, Sanken, or OST mics, can get you through years of typical production. and remain useful as IFB even when you upgrade your talent packs to lectro, zax, audio ltd, or other higher end systems.

Also, with the rapidly changing wireless landscape, you may actually save money by not buying a more expensive system than can pay itself off in a year or less.

I do suggest you get a pro timecode solution, though (SD 702t, 744t, 664, 788t all have Ambient circuit). I used to feel it mattered less, but I am finding that our current post software is actually easier with an integrated TC stamp in the audio files.

But mostly, make sure your team includes a person whose primary tasks are audio. and secondarily can help light.