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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Stage three pays twice?

How many cameras do I want to own?

One - with an interchangable brain.

That is what RED wanted to be - and that is why they offered the generous upgrade program when they "got it right" with Epic.

I am not that sentimental - I am not interested in keeping 'ole #1297.

Although I do have a Bell and Howell 70DR that sits on a book shelf - the first camera I ever exposed film through. :-)
 
Dylan Macleod said:
And hopefully they are listening to this and other threads and give us some sort of concrete (woops -everything is subject o change!) timeline so we can decide wether or not to upgrade our R1's or wait for the Epic. There is a concrete plan for the sensor upgrade program - why not the Epic?

If there are stumbling blocks - we are big kids - let us know. If it is going to be another year, this would be useful information to have. Something is up, because initial estimates were that we would have our Epic's by now.

I have no problem with this.

I would just prefer full disclosure.

Wasn't Tattoo supposed to be available "this year" - meaning 2009?

Announcing a concrete sensor upgrade program with no word on Epic just raises a cloud of dust.

I am reluctantly willing to pay twice - but as David suggested - not if it is only going to be for a few months. Will I get Epic in the summer? Well I might not upgrade my R1. Will it be the fall? Well then I will upgrade.
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Jim has mentioned that the Asic is still going through some work. If the sensor and the boards are ready for R1, I think this makes sense to give those people who need the new features of that sensor an opportunity to get it in a camera and start shooting with it. Although $5750 is not a drop in the bucket for most of us, for some it might pay for itself very quickly, and it gives you an opportunity to get a feel for the sensor and how it captures in advance of an Epic release. For those who have been on the fence about Red Rocket, there is even more incentive. I know it can get confusing at times trying to keep track of the upgrade process (stages), so maybe it's time to do another chart that integrates this new upgrade path.

I'm dying to see the new images, to test this sensor thoroughly to see how far it can be pushed and the improvements it has made over Mysterium. Having a clean image up through 1000 asa is very attractive and will do wonders for some of my clients, actually all of them when it comes right down to it.
 
I hear ya Steve!

I am dying to get the new sensor too!

The new sensor won't really "pay for itself" though - I doubt there will be different prices for the different RED1 systems. Try justifying that to a producer without a battery of comparison tests. It is is going to be difficult enough educating producers/directors/agencies and studios on the difference between R1 and Epic.

Sure, EPIC will command a higher price though.

This is an additional $5750 for a new sensor - that I will be paying for again when I trade in my R1 (with or without the sensor upgrade).

Wouldn't it be more consistent with RED's policy up to now to offer credit of your camera ($17500) and add what you invested in the sensor ($5750) to the trade in deal.

I sense now that maybe I AM being ungrateful. :-)

But it would be consistent with past RED behaviour. Which like any spoiled brat - I have grown accustomed to.

Okay - never mind all that - just give me a concrete timeline and I'll shut up.
 
Another thing to consider: the new sensor will require a new SDK to transcode the footage, rendering many workflows temporarily obsolete - we all know how easily and fast post houses like to adopt. If you're upgrading the sensor right now, you better get into the post business as well (Red Rocket) and deliver transcoded footage. Opportunities and stumbling blocks abound. Awesome. (and I truly mean that)
 
Dylan Macleod said:
I hear ya Steve!

I am dying to get the new sensor too!

The new sensor won't really "pay for itself" though - I doubt there will be different prices for the different RED1 systems. Try justifying that to a producer without a battery of comparison tests. It is is going to be difficult enough educating producers/directors/agencies and studios on the difference between R1 and Epic.

Sure, EPIC will command a higher price though.

This is an additional $5750 for a new sensor - that I will be paying for again when I trade in my R1 (with or without the sensor upgrade).

Wouldn't it be more consistent with RED's policy up to now to offer credit of your camera ($17500) and add what you invested in the sensor ($5750) to the trade in deal.

I sense now that maybe I AM being ungrateful. :-)

But it would be consistent with past RED behaviour. Which like any spoiled brat - I have grown accustomed to.

Okay - never mind all that - just give me a concrete timeline and I'll shut up.
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I agree with most of this.

In earlier posts I described a "sensor rental" or a "pre purchase". You kind of get theat with the 1250 rebate.

Like if you were going for stage three then you'd just "rent" your sensor until you got your Epic body. IE Pay for stage three now, get the upgrade, ship it back and have the sensor put in your EPIC. you know, use it in the R1 until the EPIC is ready.

But with NO TIMELINE then this is really just a vanity purchase, to have the latest sensor. If EPIC can ship in three months then it is a high premium to pay.

BUT...even Jim is working with an R1 with an X upgrade, so I don't think there is a working EPIC on earth right now, how far out does that put us from a production ready EPIC? six months? a Year? upgrade makes sense.



David
 
Florian Stadler said:
Another thing to consider: the new sensor will require a new SDK to transcode the footage, rendering many workflows temporarily obsolete - we all know how easily and fast post houses like to adopt. If you're upgrading the sensor right now, you better get into the post business as well (RED Rocket™) and deliver transcoded footage. Opportunities and stumbling blocks abound. Awesome. (and I truly mean that)
Click to expand...

Florian - YOU ARE SO RIGHT!

Editors are about to have an even bigger "HATE ON" for RED than they previously did. The good news is many agencies (in commercial work at least) and directors see the clear advantage of shooting RED over many tape formats and demand it...they have seen the light. So maybe this learning curve won't be as painful as the first...
 
David Battistella said:
I agree with most of this.

In earlier posts I described a "sensor rental" or a "pre purchase". You kind of get theat with the 1250 rebate.

Like if you were going for stage three then you'd just "rent" your sensor until you got your Epic body. IE Pay for stage three now, get the upgrade, ship it back and have the sensor put in your EPIC. you know, use it in the R1 until the EPIC is ready.

But with NO TIMELINE then this is really just a vanity purchase, to have the latest sensor. If EPIC can ship in three months then it is a high premium to pay.

BUT...even Jim is working with an R1 with an X upgrade, so I don't think there is a working EPIC on earth right now, how far out does that put us from a production ready EPIC? six months? a Year? upgrade makes sense.



David
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Good observation David - the scales keep swinging back and forth!
 
Florian Stadler said:
...If you're upgrading the sensor right now, you better get into the post business as well (RED Rocket™) and deliver transcoded footage. Opportunities and stumbling blocks abound. Awesome. (and I truly mean that)
Click to expand...

Absolutely, and that is where the paying it off quickly part can come in. If you have clients that need the extra sensitivity, less skew, better color science, etc and you have the means to help them implement workflows, then opportunity may present itself.

Having said that, it's certainly something to consider. It may not be the best decision for everyone. If clients are still hiring the R1, and you're getting good results with it, including solid post workflow, then it might be worthwhile to wait until the new cameras are out and a market shift happens. Then trade it in.
 
Just when there are many excellent workflows we have to upgrade our way back to one single workflow that really requires the purchase of more Red hardware.

Waiting it out might he great. A redrocket might be much cheaper in a year. Look at what you can grab an 18-50 for now. About a third of the day one price.

David
 
David Battistella said:
Just when there are many excellent workflows we have to upgrade our way back to one single workflow that really requires the purchase of more Red hardware.

Waiting it out might he great. A redrocket might be much cheaper in a year. Look at what you can grab an 18-50 for now. About a third of the day one price.

David
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True, workflow has improved tremendously in a year. I suppose the big question is how fast the new SDK rolls out and then how fast it is implemented by third parties. If this rolls out fairly quickly, then perhaps the post tools will not be far behind the new sensor. As much as RED Rocket might seem like a tough pill to swallow to some, I have to say it really is the answer to a lot of problems and it has the potential to do many great things in a variety of applications. I am a big fan of offloading the heavy lifting from the CPU to GPU, hardware solutions.

I say let's wait for more details from RED on what the roadmap looks like for the next few months. Maybe there are more surprises to come. :smile:
 
Steve Sherrick said:
True, workflow has improved tremendously in a year. I suppose the big question is how fast the new SDK rolls out and then how fast it is implemented by third parties. If this rolls out fairly quickly, then perhaps the post tools will not be far behind the new sensor. As much as RED Rocket™ might seem like a tough pill to swallow to some, I have to say it really is the answer to a lot of problems and it has the potential to do many great things in a variety of applications. I am a big fan of offloading the heavy lifting from the CPU to GPU, hardware solutions.

I say let's wait for more details from RED on what the roadmap looks like for the next few months. Maybe there are more surprises to come. :smile:
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How long can we wait to make decisions, when sensor upgrades start shipping next week?

We need the information on EPIC delivery now - in order for it to be useful.
 
Dylan Macleod said:
How long can we wait to make decisions, when sensor upgrades start shipping next week?

We need the information on EPIC delivery now - in order for it to be useful.
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I understand where you are coming from, but what if that information is simply not available at the moment? I have no knowledge of whether it is or isn't. The only thing I know is that the R1 upgrades start soon and I'll have to make a decision of whether I want to jump in now or wait it out. That means taking a look at client demand, financial ramifications, logistics, and my own personal roadmap for 2010. I hope I'm not making this seem like an easy decision. There are a lot of factors involved. So, I don't question why you would be asking these things. Hope I didn't come off that way.
 
Steve Sherrick said:
I understand where you are coming from, but what if that information is simply not available at the moment? I have no knowledge of whether it is or isn't. The only thing I know is that the R1 upgrades start soon and I'll have to make a decision of whether I want to jump in now or wait it out. That means taking a look at client demand, financial ramifications, logistics, and my own personal roadmap for 2010. I hope I'm not making this seem like an easy decision. There are a lot of factors involved. So, I don't question why you would be asking these things. Hope I didn't come off that way.
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The information ISN'T available. That is the drag... and reason for this thread.

I am mildly annoyed by not knowing what the current delivery path is on top of the recent knowledge that I will have to pay twice, for what I had banked on paying once.

:beatdeadhorse5:
 
Dylan Macleod said:
The information ISN'T available. That is the drag... and reason for this thread.

I am mildly annoyed by not knowing what the current delivery path is on top of the recent knowledge that I will have to pay twice, for what I had banked on paying once.

:beatdeadhorse5:
Click to expand...

I honestly believe we give you guys more heads up on what is coming than anyone else in this industry ( and most others )... sorry you feel annoyed.
 
I always though stage 3 is my bet. This might change now. I think it boils down to these points:

1. The new sensor gives the RedOne an extended life as a backup body/second camera next to Epic until Monstro hits the market, an interesting perspective.

2. I purely guess here, but making MyteriumX available now may be a hint for an even more delayed EpicX. Before the new sensor upgrade program I predicted Epic to be available in Summer 2010, now I suppose it's going to be end of the year. This makes perfectly sense because Red learned their lesson that a beta-testing customer crowed is not a long-term business model. With Epic their competitor is Arri.

3. Stage 3 customers are the ones that stand on the end of the queue. So Spring 2011 would be not unrealistic for EpicX delivery. This is more than a year to go.

4. My understanding is that R3Ds generated by the new sensor cannot be processed by the current SDK. This is not the best news, because all of those (like me) who finally have a working workflow based on advanced third party tools are not compatible anymore, until the new SDK is implemented. This takes months, not weeks.

What to do?

Waiting. I'm in the 900s. My call will be probably in march for the sensor upgrade, hardly earlier. By then the new SDK is out and my application vendors can give me an estimate when the new SDK is implemented in new builds of their software.

Finally, I did not buy the RedRocket yet because I don't need it. I do RT 2K/1080p deliveries on tape already with current hardware, no RedRocket involved. Investing the planned budget for the RedRocket in the new sensor is much more meaningful if my tools can take advantage of the new SDK.

The least thing I can use now is a broken workflow. The new sensor brings us where we've been 2 years ago: a great camera with an awkward workflow. It took me one year and some money to sort this out. I'm positive that this will be much faster now.

And BTW, I don't rent out my camera, but solely use it for my own projects. Unfortunately I'm dead sure that my customers won't recognize the difference the new sensor is going to make, the pictures are great already. So now pressure on this front either.

Hans
 
Jarred Land said:
I honestly believe we give you guys more heads up on what is coming than anyone else in this industry ( and most others )... sorry you feel annoyed.
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Jarred,

If I may ask without asking for a "new" update. Does this mean we can just assume the EPIC schedule has not changed? Or can we correctly assume that it is subject to change.

I think that the rebate is a fair deal. One thing is for sure. You guys always give us a lot to choose from and a lot to talk about.

David
 
Dylan Macleod said:
Florian - YOU ARE SO RIGHT!

Editors are about to have an even bigger "HATE ON" for RED than they previously did. The good news is many agencies (in commercial work at least) and directors see the clear advantage of shooting RED over many tape formats and demand it...they have seen the light. So maybe this learning curve won't be as painful as the first...
Click to expand...

I think the MAIN issue won't be the editors per se, as they will still be cutting in their format of choice (footage can be processed for them).

BUT.....the big question is, are all the final grading houses out there that are now up to speed in going back to RAW red files suddenly going to have trouble going back to RAW red-X files?? This would put a SERIOUS dent in the number of productions willing to shoot RED, as we'd be back temporarily where we were when RED first came out (needing to conform to the EDL then provide color facilities with DPX frames with handles - which KILLS the agencies timelines in commercial world).
 
let me clarify, it would put a serious dent in productions willing to shoot RED-X as they would rather shoot gool "old-fashioned" (haha) RED files until all links in the chain can work with the new RED-X files with equal speed and efficiency, thus making your current RED maybe MORE rentable without the sensor upgrade Dylan while you wait the six (or so) months for your EPIC upgrade. Just a thought.....
 
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