Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Stage three pays twice?

Mike Smith said:
My only suggestion to Red to make everyone happy, is to run Stage 2 & 3 concurrently to give all early adopters equal access to an Epic-X. Just a thought.
Click to expand...
Don't be naive the reason of stage two is to make Red one owners keep their Red One cameras as many as possible. There are 7000 cameras out there. Stage two is more expensive than stage 3 not many will go for stage 2 if stage 3 will run concurrently with stage 2.
 
David (dudi) Namir said:
Don't be naive the reason of stage two is to make Red one owners keep their Red One cameras as many as possible. There are 7000 cameras out there. Stage two is more expensive than stage 3 not many will go for stage 2 if stage 3 will run concurrently with stage 2.
Click to expand...
I disagree. With stage 2, you effectively get a Red One for only around $9000 in addition to the Epic. If you've got the extra money and want to keep your Red One, it's a better deal.
 
Shawn Nelson said:
I think it's obvious that Red wants as few people as possible in Stage 3. Note that the Red body only has a value of $10,500 (stage 2 vs stage 3). Then when you figure in the whole sensor upgrade thing it starts becomming really apparent.
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more.

And the main question that rolls around in my head, if Epic is going to be so great, why would I want my R1 any longer? If I need a 2nd camera, I'd want it to be another Epic. Higher resolution, higher frame rates, great sensitivity, less physical weight, more media options, better monitors, redmote etc...

There's a lot of reasons to upgrade to Epic, not many to keep your R1, whose rental price will drop to next to nothing. According to the schedule, the R1 has to compete with Scarlets & Epics. It'll be a middle range, heavier and more cumbersome camera. Low budget productions will want the Scarlet, middle range and higher budgets will want the Epic.

I see no market value for the R1, after the release of the Epic & Scarlet. Just something that'll sit in its case forever, with little resale value. Especially because it isn't eligible for any further upgrades. There's not a lot of video/hd/digital cinema cameras that become beloved collector's items.

Simply put, the Epic is a superior camera in almost every way. It's going to kill the R1.

Just my .02
 
Mike Smith said:
I disagree. With stage 2, you effectively get a Red One for only around $9000 in addition to the Epic. If you've got the extra money and want to keep your Red One, it's a better deal.
Click to expand...
You are looking from the owner perspective. But from Red Company perspective it is as many Red One owners will keep their cameras. That way they keep cameras in the market circulation for potential maintenance and some accessories sale. If there would be the trade in only option what would Red do with 7000 cameras.
Also you write you effectively get a Red One for only around $9000. This camera you already paid for it!!!! when you first bought it!!! and if you want it to be upgraded you need to add $4500!!!! So in relate to stage 3 you get an update camera for $13,500 after originally you paid $17,500. That is total of 31K + 10 for the Epic.
As for my self I have two cameras. That give me more options to play with a long the Red upgrade-Epic road map
 
Dylan Macleod said:
Then why, as David B pointed out, is Jim posting footage from a R1 with the sensor upgrade and not an EPIC?
Click to expand...

Obviously there are technical problems with Epic's electronics that crunch the data of the MX-sensor.

It looks like that Red is currently building up a Red 2.0 program with its core being the new sensor and the corresponding SDK. This can be developed with an upgraded R1.

When the software side is finished and the R&D of Epics hardware is done the beta testing (tattoo) will start. That again will take some time, say half a year.

When the beta testing period is finished production starts. Another 3 months are gone when finally the first Epics systems are delivered, perhaps November 2010.

----

The upgrade program does make a lot of sense:

1. It takes the pressure off the R&D of EpicX. The R1 will feel fit when stepping in the ring with its upcoming competitors.

2. The Red 2.0 program can be tested in the field, not only by the tattoo program, but by us the customers. When Epic hits the market most glitches will be sorted out.

3. We, the customers, can choose the moment when we will switch to Epic, regardless which stage we choose because the R1 is by then not a legacy camera, again less pressure. Pushing the delivery of Epic 3 months or so will help financing the upgrade.

I'm pretty sure that the time frame from sensor upgrade to Epic will be approx. 1 year. Enough time for a meaningful ROI.

Hans
 
Well, if it's a year, that's fine with me. I'd just like to hear it from RED.

Stephen
 
Stephen Pruitt said:
Well, if it's a year, that's fine with me. I'd just like to hear it from RED.

Stephen
Click to expand...

Yes. Would be great but won't happen. David Batistella made some valid points on this.

But one is sure: actual delivery was always (much) later than the announced schedules. Red is a Californian company and Californians tend to be over-optimistic. Add 50% and you get the actual deliverydates. For a German this is hard to deal with but I like it - uncertainty can be a refreshing force.

Hans
 
Mike Smith said:
With all due respect, I think you guys are way over-analyzing this.
Click to expand...

This might be very true. It really only comes down to two things.

1. Upgrade the camera when the call comes.
2. Do not upgrade the camera and wait for EPIC when that call comes.

I think owner operators just want to make the most informed choice before an investment. RED does not owe it to tell us dates, but I guess in these economic times it isn't a simple choice to drop dough that some would hang onto for a while, wait and invest it fully in the latest, better technology EPIC has to offer.

From a planning sense I think people want to stretch this upgrade for as long as they can

David
 
David Battistella said:
From a planning sense I think people want to stretch this upgrade for as long as they can

David
Click to expand...

Well said. And the sensor upgrade helps in this regard. Not upgrading the camera means to be stucked in Red 1.0 land. Not an option for rental houses and many private owners.

Hans
 
Hans von Sonntag said:
Well said. And the sensor upgrade helps in this regard. Not upgrading the camera means to be stucked in Red 1.0 land. Not an option for rental houses and many private owners.

Hans
Click to expand...

In a business where "the latest" means more than anything else.

David
 
Agreed.
I'm worried that I might flush the better part of $10,000 down the toilet to upgrade two cameras. There is likely only a small premium in rental price between an MX-Red and a Red One.
If Epic comes out six weeks after I upgrade, it's a BIG flush. Three months, a LITTLE flush. Six months, I can break even.
I am not in business to break even.
Just looking for a little guidance from the Red Team.
Cheers,
Harry
 
Harry Clark said:
Agreed.
I'm worried that I might flush the better part of $10,000 down the toilet to upgrade two cameras. There is likely only a small premium in rental price between an MX-Red and a Red One.
If Epic comes out six weeks after I upgrade, it's a BIG flush. Three months, a LITTLE flush. Six months, I can break even.
I am not in business to break even.
Just looking for a little guidance from the Red Team.
Cheers,
Harry
Click to expand...


Harry,

This all also assumes that the SDK is released with the upgrade program so that we can protect "other" investments. FCS Studio with Apple Color and Clipfinder is a very viable workflow in many situation.

Giving up a really fine tuned workflow is a tough choice too. How long will it take for me to be able to use that workfow with an M-X?

I have nothing against SCRATCH but with M-X it seems like we are back to the one single post option:

REDCINE-X and SCRATCH, like with the early release of R1.

So part of the upgrade decision means I have to have a pretty good idea how much pain I am willing to endure in post.

RED can not control how fast "other" companies are up to speed, but I like the ability to edit and view proxies in Apple QuickTime and other Apple applications. The same might be true for the ADOBE suite (but I am not up to speed on that).

New sensor AWESOME.
More DR AWESOME
More SENSITIVE AWESOME

Original POST WORKFLOW EEEKKKK!!!! I don't want to go back there.



David
 
Harry Clark said:
If Epic comes out six weeks after I upgrade, it's a BIG flush.
Click to expand...

Hi,

I would not be surprised if all 7000 cameras get the option to upgrade before Epic is stage 2. It would make business sense.

Stephen
 
I have nothing against SCRATCH but with M-X it seems like we are back to the one single post option:
Click to expand...

This puts pressure on other companies. You want to compete, you need to stay up to date. I suspect with each new sensor, there will be a new SDK. There will probably be many SDKs in between.
 
Stacey Spears said:
This puts pressure on other companies. You want to compete, you need to stay up to date. I suspect with each new sensor, there will be a new SDK. There will probably be many SDKs in between.
Click to expand...

Stacy

I hear you but I have to ask. Is it more important for FCP support with 1 million seats worldwide or a smaller DI specific tool like scratch. I would venture a guess that a much higher percentage of RED projects do not have a high end DI attached to it.

It makes sense for Scratch to jump at these chances to widen their customer base. Apple or Adobe would be less likely to be reading reduser every day.

I'm not sure Apple or Adobe care much about competing with niche DI software.

We all bought into a "Camera System" not just a camera because it shoots a proprietary data file, a file that does have to interact with the rest of the world.

Don't play the competition card too fast, when FCP supports RED that adds a lot of credibility to RED.

It's not a one way street.

Competition is good but so is the widest possible choice.
 
Is it more important for FCP support with 1 million seats worldwide or a smaller DI specific tool like scratch.
Click to expand...

They are not mutually exclusive and its not a serial process. Personally, I use FCP for editing and SCRATCH for finishing, so I need both.

Don't play the competition card too fast, when FCP supports RED that adds a lot of credibility to RED.
Click to expand...

As far as I know, all FCP support to date has been provided by RED.

The more popular RED becomes, the more 3rd parties are going to have to work to keep up. When RED releases a new SDK, those who slack will lose business to those who don't. As RED matures, updates will slow down.
 
Stacey Spears said:
They are not mutually exclusive and its not a serial process. Personally, I use FCP for editing and SCRATCH for finishing, so I need both.



As far as I know, all FCP support to date has been provided by RED.

The more popular RED becomes, the more 3rd parties are going to have to work to keep up. When RED releases a new SDK, those who slack will lose business to those who don't. As RED matures, updates will slow down.
Click to expand...


but don't you think they have to work "together" to ensure a smooth transition between builds?

Isn't that in everyone's best interest?

When you are setting new standards you need partners.

David
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top