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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

SSD run times

roryhinds said:
In this Chart there is 5kFF, I assume this is Full Frame of the current MX Sensor and not meaning FF as in an actual Full Frame Sensor.... things are starting to get confusing around here :-)
Click to expand...

5K FF in the chart means the Full Frame of the S35 MX sensor which is 5120x2700.
 
Thanks Deanan for confirming that.

So apart from wanting higher frame rates and saving on storage, why would you shoot anything else but Full Sensor (FF) as this would give you extra headroom in post if you ever needed it and you could use a guide to mask your aspect ratio during the shoot.

Or am I missing something here?
 
if that is such a big deal for the shot then fine, have the boom in the outer frame, its still better to shot more so you have it if you need it in post then not have it and its pretty easy to paint out a boom if you need to go into that headroom.

Maybe its just me, I like having the extra headroom to work with and if I have the option to frame in post and not be looked into that crop in acquisition then thats a good thing. But then again I'm normally the one doing the post work.
 
How far off are 500Gb SSD's? or even 1tb?

I'm still feeling longer run times are needed as there are many occasions when offloading the data is not possible at 20 minute intervals.

I really hope RED can address this. With the REDONE there was the promise of a myriad of storage options, CF, spinning drives, RAM and now SSD. More options are a good thing with various peoples shooting styles and budgets as well as shot constraints.

Personally I think it would be great to have a cost effective new RED Drive option in EPIC modular form for shoots that just require longer run times due to problematic offloading of data.
 
I have three questions:

1. Is the 16:9 aspect ratio now gone or just not implemented yet?

2. Is there a way to estimate which of these resolutions will be recorable to CF card or existing RED media so that we might know what the quality hit will be if recording to RED media.

I am curious because I do not think the run time issue is that big a deal if we can record a very good quality to existing RED media.
So:

3. Can an EPIC version of what was RC28 be recorded to any existing RED media?


David
 
While its great to be able to record to existing RED Media (which is End of Life) I think one of the many benefits of EPIC is its form factor and having a new RED Drive module that clicks into the back of the camera is so much nicer than having to somehow mount an EOL RED Drive and have cables sticking out making it more cumbersome.

Isn't the MX sensor a 16:9 sensor natively so FF would be 16:9 on the Epic MX sensor?
 
roryhinds said:
...

So apart from wanting higher frame rates and saving on storage, why would you shoot anything else but Full Sensor (FF) ...
Click to expand...


roryhinds said:
I'm still feeling longer run times are needed as there are many occasions when offloading the data is not possible at 20 minute intervals.

...
Click to expand...

You partially answered your own question (above) with your concern voiced below it. If your needs are met by shooting 4K rather than FF, you can stretch your recording time significantly. For a 128G SSD, at 7:1 compression, you go from 33 minutes to 54 minutes - an increase of more than 60%.
 
I'm taking Brook's guidance as 5:1 being the norm.
Why would I want to shoot 4k (cropping the sensor) when I have a 5k camera?
Just like I never shoot 2k when I have a 4k camera.
Compromising the image quality and cropping the sensor are not a solution to my problem, I simply need larger capacity storage to work with the tool I have, a 5K camera.
 
roryhinds said:
While its great to be able to record to existing RED Media (which is End of Life) I think one of the many benefits of EPIC is its form factor and having a new RED Drive module that clicks into the back of the camera is so much nicer than having to somehow mount an EOL RED Drive and have cables sticking out making it more cumbersome.

Isn't the MX sensor a 16:9 sensor natively so FF would be 16:9 on the Epic MX sensor?
Click to expand...

I understand Rory, but perhaps if one wanted to use what exists then it would not be a huge quality hit on EPIC,

A doc or music shoot, or multicam, still might be a good reason to use the 320GB or 640GB for those speciality situations.

It seems to me that if one could record up 7.5:1 on EPIC to a RED DRIVE then it might be a viable option. You just would not get to do anything past that or unlock all of the "other" features that are only possible with SSD and for many situations that might be acceptable.

David
 
Hi David, I think we are staying/asking for the same things just using different words.
I'm asking for a new RED Drive in EPIC module form and you're asking to use the old drives... both want cheaper media at larger capacities.
 
Ahhh.

I see...but I have always understood that all of the existing media will work, it just will not allow all features of the technology.

I'd be OK with using existing larger drives where needed, but I would think that RED would NOT create a module or rehouse media they are about to EOL.

I think the most we can ask is that if we attach old media to an EPIC it tells us very plainly that the media is to slow for what ever we are attempting, the same way the R1 does this very elegantly with 8GB CF media.

David
 
Hey David, why do you think that is the most we can ask for?
This is RED, they make camera systems for people who use cameras, which they do themselves.

At the end of the day... spinning drives are cheaper than SSD's and have a larger capacity. Yes they are not as reliable or robust as SSD's but the are great when used in a sensible way.

I think even making a 3 x 2.5" RED Drive would(might) yield fast enough speed for EPIC. The drives are small and light so even making a 4 x 2.5" would be cool.

I love SSD's but they are expensive and have a small capacity so in situations where you can't get to the camera (on a crane) or you can't set up a offload station to offload the data, having a cheaper larger solution would be very cool.
 
i think we'll see a migration towards ssd drives with all tech... they're far more reliable. spinning drives... not so much. ssd price will come down in time and capacities will go up. we all want cheaper this and cheaper that. there are realities here. RED is a company and not a public service... that being said, they've done a lot for us... and we are appreciative.
 
roryhinds said:
I'm taking Brook's guidance as 5:1 being the norm.
Why would I want to shoot 4k (cropping the sensor) when I have a 5k camera?
Just like I never shoot 2k when I have a 4k camera.
Compromising the image quality and cropping the sensor are not a solution to my problem, I simply need larger capacity storage to work with the tool I have, a 5K camera.
Click to expand...

Well, I guess we all have to live within the limits that exist. RED has been pretty clear that spinning media is EOL. If you need more recording time, you'll have to find some old RED drives or, at least for now, compromise in frame rates, compression or... resolution.

Perhaps the rear SSD module - or a combination of rear and side modules - will allow for multiple SSDs with a rollover for continuous recording. And, I am sure larger SSDs will come but since RED is struggling to deliver the current crop of SSDs, I wouldn't expect 512s or higher anytime soon. There will always be limitations.
 
I am really thinking RC7:1 is what I will shoot most or maybe even RC8:1.

I did some very basic testing of RC36 and RC42 and couldn't see a difference. Since RC36 is about RC9:1 and RC42 is about RC7.5:1, then RC 7:1 should be more than enough and RC5:1 is really over kill. Great to have and if someone wants to shoot it great, but I am thinking RC7:1 is going to be more than good enough for most projects.

I see 3:1 for shooting charts and productions with more money than brains. I would really like to work on those projects, but I haven't yet.

Once I get my Epic, I will have to test them all and compare with difference mattes to see if the computer can even tell them apart.

I am also looking for 5k 16:9, which should be somewhere between 5k FF and 5k 2:1. 17min of 5k 16:9 on a 64GB SSD is perfect. I don't want shows recording more than that on a card unless there is a good reason. 14min on Alexa SxS cards has been perfect.


Dusty
 
roryhinds said:
I love SSD's but they are expensive and have a small capacity so in situations where you can't get to the camera (on a crane) or you can't set up a offload station to offload the data, having a cheaper larger solution would be very cool.
Click to expand...

A 64GB SSD is only $900 and gives you 26 minutes on a Red One at 4K RC42....people have been making full length feature films for centuries with shorter media.
 
Greg M said:
A 64GB SSD is only $900 and gives you 26 minutes on a Red One at 4K RC42....people have been making full length feature films for centuries with shorter media.
Click to expand...

True...

And I am all for the SSDs.

But REDs are used for a lot of other things than commercials and drama, judging from this board.

Doco.
Concerts.
Theatre shows.
And with the 1080 preview available on Epic/Scarlet, I think the applications will be even wider.

The cool thing is that the SSD module doesn't disable the the Drive contact on the R1... -:)

And that we can use the drives on the Epics, if we so want.

But I cannot see why RED should continue to invest in a technology (hard-drives) that was always pretty risky and is no longer neccesary.
 
roryhinds said:
Hey David, why do you think that is the most we can ask for?
This is RED, they make camera systems for people who use cameras, which they do themselves.

At the end of the day... spinning drives are cheaper than SSD's and have a larger capacity. Yes they are not as reliable or robust as SSD's but the are great when used in a sensible way.

I think even making a 3 x 2.5" RED Drive would(might) yield fast enough speed for EPIC. The drives are small and light so even making a 4 x 2.5" would be cool.

I love SSD's but they are expensive and have a small capacity so in situations where you can't get to the camera (on a crane) or you can't set up a offload station to offload the data, having a cheaper larger solution would be very cool.
Click to expand...

We learned that if we get continuous calls about the same problem, it is probably the time to do something different. What is the definition of insanity again? We have spent more money helping people recover footage than we could ever make selling spinning drives...

Jim
 
Of course, I guess as the end user you don't get to see what is happening at HQ.
I've never had problems with Drives so I'm only going on my experience.

Lets just hope 500Gb & 1TB SSD's come out soon and bring the cost down with it.
 
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