SSD run times

[Steve Sherrick]

We learned that if we get continuous calls about the same problem, it is probably the time to do something different. What is the definition of insanity again? We have spent more money helping people recover footage than we could ever make selling spinning drives...

Jim

There are going to be a lot of RED RAID spinning drives hitting the market due to SSD infiltration. My guess is the average price will be between $500-$800. 640GB drives obviously more. For that price and that capacity, I would think there will be a nice little market for people who want to continue using them and get the most mileage out of their money. They may be able to take more risks (smaller projects) and perhaps buy an extra one or two of them if their main set has trouble. There will also be 16GB cards floating around at reasonable prices (already happening). I can see where at some point, RED has to cut its losses with these media formats, in particular the drives and move onto more stable, cost effective media.

 

[Brook Willard]

Remember, I like 5:1... But that's today on a VFX-heavy multiple-hundred-million dollar tent pole feature. Will I recommend 5:1 (or even 5K, for that matter) to TV shows or commercials? I don't know yet, but if i had to answer today I'd say probably not.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

We learned that if we get continuous calls about the same problem, it is probably the time to do something different. What is the definition of insanity again? We have spent more money helping people recover footage than we could ever make selling spinning drives...

Jim

I guess I have been lucky. I have always felt that way mounting a RAID-0 spinning drive for any kind of recording.

Yet I still haven't lost any data except for in experimental situations (early on in a chopper...) where I already knew the risk.

Despite that, I totally agree.

I have recomended drives to none.
But have fortunately been using them a lot.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Remember, I like 5:1... But that's today on a VFX-heavy multiple-hundred-million dollar tent pole feature. Will I recommend 5:1 (or even 5K, for that matter) to TV shows or commercials? I don't know yet, but if i had to answer today I'd say probably not.

I think along those lines.

4KHD @ 7:1 is what I am having in mind for TV series as the baseline.

 

[roryhinds]

Remember, I like 5:1... But that's today on a VFX-heavy multiple-hundred-million dollar tent pole feature. Will I recommend 5:1 (or even 5K, for that matter) to TV shows or commercials? I don't know yet, but if i had to answer today I'd say probably not.

Thing is, resolution as side, its about FOV and if shooting 5k gives you the whole FOV from the camera your using I don't see why you would want to crop your FOV, expect to gain higher frame rates

 

[paulherrin]

i could be wrong, but i don't think its a sensor crop...

 

[Gunleik Groven]

The pixelsize on R1 MX and Epic shpuld be the same AFAIK.

Thus it is indeed a sensorcrop...

 

[paulherrin]

oh, okay. but surely the 1080 won't be a crop? that just makes me wonder about the rest...

 

[Robert Frank]

What would be the down side to use the lower cost SSD's in the same way as the RED Raid Drive?

Swap out spinning HDD's for SSD's in the enclosure the RED has already paid to develop, tweak the raid controller, and fulfill back ordered drives.

If there is a concern about performance, firmware control the device to limited REDcode and frame rates to insure adequate overhead and solid performance. RED has already done this with 8GB versus 16GB CF cards, RED Raids, and RED Ram.

If RED wants to be more than a feature film camera company it would be wise to acknowledge the need for longer record run times.

Documentary, ENG/EFP, corporate, industrial, educational, local TV, wedding and events productions are, in my mind, professional too, and definitely have a need for more than 20 minutes of record time, and usually have limited or no extra crew for offloading footage on location in order to reuse media.

 

[paulherrin]

we can sit around and gripe about it until the end of time. there's some realities here. any kind of drive has to go through serious testing. most of it doesn't cut it. there's been a history of media issues, where people have had trouble. RED is tired of that, they lose money, it's a hassle. the cheap crap that's out there won't cut it. get over it.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

oh, okay. but surely the 1080 won't be a crop? that just makes me wonder about the rest...

1080 is not an option on R1, but if it was, it would be a crop....


The 1080 I usually refer to is downsampled from 4k 16:9, 4kHD or 3k HD...

All those 1080s look really joicy...

 

[paulherrin]

no no, i mean on the epics

....

are the 3k,4k,5k options crop, and the sub-2k options from the monitor feed (basically)?

 

[Robert Frank]

we can sit around and gripe about it until the end of time. there's some realities here. any kind of drive has to go through serious testing. most of it doesn't cut it. there's been a history of media issues, where people have had trouble. RED is tired of that, they lose money, it's a hassle. the cheap crap that's out there won't cut it. get over it.

Not sure if you are referencing my post.

It seems to me that the MLC SSD's are better than than the 2.5" laptop drives in the RED Raid, so how would that be not good? The device would become more reliable, rugged, and outperform the many RED Raids already in use.

I would think if you dialed it down to the level the RED Raid performs now there would be substantial overhead and could be a low cost, solid state, ENG module.

Not griping, trying to problem solve, there is a difference.

 

[paulherrin]

don't take it personally. they are no longer making RED Raids... for a reason.

the bigger factor is still SUSTAINED read/write speeds and overall reliability/quality. these "laptop drives" at least had that... not so with the ssd's on the market.

believe me, i wish the media standards were there. i really do.

 

[Robert Frank]

Paul, I was trying to generate constructive discussion on the pros and cons of using lower cost SSD's in the manner that RED Raids are currently being used.

Nothing personal about it, just business. That was my point.

:smash: :Angel_anim:

the bigger factor is still SUSTAINED read/write speeds and overall reliability/quality. these "laptop drives" at least had that... not so with the ssd's on the market.

Ah, I didn't realize this. I thought they were better than laptop drives. That's the end of that idea.

 

[paulherrin]

i totally understand. you probably haven't seen the 10+ threads that have moved to this topic over the past couple months... i apologize for my frustration.

bottom line... RED is cracking down on their media - in their mind it needs to be foolproof. some of us are upset by that, i don't personally see a direct benefit for myself. but they've chosen their route, and i am 100% sure they would love to get out of the media business, and let us buy any old thing... they just don't work. so for now, RED has to conjure their own and test it til their tired.

you can run the tests on any of the currently available media vs. any of RED's past or present. it's pathetic. they've done tests, others have done tests, i've done tests. the results are always the same. i wish it wasn't so.

one day, things may change, when RED's reputation is beyond dispute, and they don't have to worry so much about it. by that time, maybe the media manufacturers will get their stuff together. until then, we get some really good media that works better than any other media available, at a really decent rate.

 

[David Battistella]

I'm kinda reminding myself that this is all part of being on the bleeding edge and innovating and pushing the limits of technology.

Let's say the prevailing attitude of RED was to not bother releasing a 5K camera because media was too expensive to record the data. We'd never go for that.

The simple fact is that trailblazing is expensive because what is being accomplished is highly specialized. You can't expect to just use off the shelf stuff to work with a sophisticated system.

It's the difference between a stock car and a race car. we all know that the race car needs a lot more advanced tools to squeeze out the performance.

David

 

[Erich Ocean]

Jim, without the 2.5:1 (lossless) option, it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to tell what exactly the lossy wavelet compression is doing to the image. I hope that 2.5:1 has not been removed. At the very least, there should be no problem using it for stills, and the Epic is designed to do both stills and motion.

I agree that 2.5:1 is probably unnecessary now (especially for motion). The REDlogFilm and REDcolor2 bring enormous improvements in skin tones (my main area of concern). But, every situation is different and while I trust you, I'd like to verify myself. I hope that 2.5:1 is still in the cards and has not been dropped from the Epic program; it was a major factor in my purchase decision.

Best, Erich

 

[Elsie N]

I hope that 2.5:1 is still in the cards and has not been dropped from the Epic program; it was a major factor in my purchase decision.

Best, Erich

Yeah, me too...:nonod:

 

[Jannard]

Jim, without the 2.5:1 (lossless) option, it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to tell what exactly the lossy wavelet compression is doing to the image. I hope that 2.5:1 has not been removed. At the very least, there should be no problem using it for stills, and the Epic is designed to do both stills and motion.

I agree that 2.5:1 is probably unnecessary now (especially for motion). The REDlogFilm and REDcolor2 bring enormous improvements in skin tones (my main area of concern). But, every situation is different and while I trust you, I'd like to verify myself. I hope that 2.5:1 is still in the cards and has not been dropped from the Epic program; it was a major factor in my purchase decision.

Best, Erich

We can put it in... just shoot 18 fps to SSD and compare to 3:1. If you can show any difference under a microscope, you get a cookie. No cheating. Then you have to post your results REAL BIG so that enough people see it and we can take it back out. Deal?

The biggest budget projects on the planet, with lots of VFX, have seen 3:1 and chosen 5:1. So the chances of you needing even 3:1 are remote past Siberia.

Jim