SpeedGrade

[jake blackstone]

Jake,

have you actually looked at SpeedGrade CS6? There are significant changes in both workflow and UI.

Lin

I have not. And as I said, unless there are some kind of new, compelling features in SG6, I see no reason in spending time and learning it.
Btw, what "significant changes in both workflow and UI" are you talking about?

 

[shashbugu]

I have not. And as I said, unless there are some kind of new, compelling features in SG6, I see no reason in spending time and learning it.
Btw, what "significant changes in both workflow and UI" are you talking about?

The user interface has been extremely streamlined from the original Speedgrade (i hope they don't think we are as dumb as the Soundbooth users). Actually it looks more like the interface they were showing off for lumetri. The timeline is a lot cleaner.
As they are still working on it I am going to re-compile a long list of features that need's to be enhanced or implemented.

The first and most important is a plugin api/sdk.
2. why does only Ae support the .look file. Premiere should be the first App with this.
3. Premieres colors tools should share the same exact coding or Api with SG, so a send to SG in the yet to be properly implemented dynamic link will retain mock/trial grades the colorist can use.
4. regardless of what anyone says, this is the sexiest and most straightforward interface to use.
5. SG needs a send back to premiere command just as in Final cut studio, or even better a dynamic linked immediate update, so text and graphic layers can be finally conformed
6. It took me a while to find the tracker. But I finally did. Its certainly not a bad tracker at all. Certainly only tracks linear shapes.
7. bezier masking tools needed badly.
8. Noise reduction
9. layered fx tool ie, add, screen, lighten, the works
10. better more filmic blurs, like in Photoshop or AE.
11. Better communication between the different Adobe departments and software developers. As in "hey Jim I just developed a content aware tool, I think you can work wonders with it in Video" or "Hey lin check out the color tools in Lightroom see if there's anything in here that you can use".
12. Every product has like 20 managers but like 3 coders, whats up with that?
13. every year we have to shell out almost $1000 for upgrades, that's half the price of a flame premium support and upgrade license.
14. better more graphical curves interface.
15. The secondaries isolation tool, is way too oldschool, many of us used to the secondaries in Colorista II can't go back to this.
Sorry about the Rant
16. take a close look at the color arithmetic and colormixer tools in AE, brilliant albeit 8 bit.

more to come

 

[jake blackstone]

The user interface has been extremely streamlined from the original Speedgrade (i hope they don't think we are as dumb as the Soundbooth users). Actually it looks more like the interface they were showing off for lumetri. The timeline is a lot cleaner.
As they are still working on it I am going to re-compile a long list of features that need's to be enhanced or implemented.

The first and most important is a plugin api/sdk.
2. why does only Ae support the .look file. Premiere should be the first App with this.
3. Premieres colors tools should share the same exact coding or Api with SG, so a send to SG in the yet to be properly implemented dynamic link will retain mock/trial grades the colorist can use.
4. regardless of what anyone says, this is the sexiest and most straightforward interface to use.
5. SG needs a send back to premiere command just as in Final cut studio, or even better a dynamic linked immediate update, so text and graphic layers can be finally conformed
6. It took me a while to find the tracker. But I finally did. Its certainly not a bad tracker at all. Certainly only tracks linear shapes.
7. bezier masking tools needed badly.
8. Noise reduction
9. layered fx tool ie, add, screen, lighten, the works
10. better more filmic blurs, like in Photoshop or AE.
11. Better communication between the different Adobe departments and software developers. As in "hey Jim I just developed a content aware tool, I think you can work wonders with it in Video" or "Hey lin check out the color tools in Lightroom see if there's anything in here that you can use".
12. Every product has like 20 managers but like 3 coders, whats up with that?
13. every year we have to shell out almost $1000 for upgrades, that's half the price of a flame premium support and upgrade license.
14. better more graphical curves interface.
15. The secondaries isolation tool, is way too oldschool, many of us used to the secondaries in Colorista II can't go back to this.
Sorry about the Rant
16. take a close look at the color arithmetic and colormixer tools in AE, brilliant albeit 8 bit.

more to come

Obviously, interface usefulness is in the eye of beholder
So far, all I see are only feature requests. What about features, that already implemented, that would make me switch from Resolve?

 

[shashbugu]

New features hmm...lol... Compared to Resolve, lets see, I'll have to consult the manual. ...Wait no manual. emmm okay errr, features,

Well for one it plays back realtime all effects, at least 4 layers.
It has a nice splash screen
multiple playheads to compare frames or shots
keyframe based precise tracking
creating quick look dailies

It has the potential to rival Baselight @$995 by CS8.

Anyway Jake, this is Reduser/Adobeuser if you don't like it SG post somewhere else like in Davinci user thread. We don't like your attitude. ut:

 

[Johnny Friday]

While Jake has a rather gruff approach....i don't know the gentleman.....he sure seems to know his business when comes to color correction. I for one appreciate his take, but Jake--please hold back the anger amigo. While you are obviously passionate about color work and your tools....you're pretty hard in your posts not only here.....maybe that's Jake.....but please do share Jake....but maybe in a more constructive manner. I'll say this though....i'm tired of software being released that just doesn't work or when you need to dig through the web to try and figure out how to just begin loading of a clip. STOP releasing software before its time---because it just sucks when you work on the other end of this stuff. Please Adobe, dig up beta users before letting it all role....fastest way to get me to jump ship is stick me with problems--my rant with PrPro cs6 and of course it's a pain to load a clip into SG.

 

[shashbugu]

While Jake has a rather gruff approach....i don't know the gentleman.....he sure seems to know his business when comes to color correction. I for one appreciate his take, but Jake--please hold back the anger amigo. While you are obviously passionate about color work and your tools....you're pretty hard in your posts not only here.....maybe that's Jake.....but please do share Jake....but maybe in a more constructive manner. I'll say this though....i'm tired of software being released that just doesn't work or when you need to dig through the web to try and figure out how to just begin loading of a clip. STOP releasing software before its time---because it just sucks when you work on the other end of this stuff. Please Adobe, dig up beta users before letting it all role....fastest way to get me to jump ship is stick me with problems--my rant with PrPro cs6 and of course it's a pain to load a clip into SG.

LOL. Johnny, hope you know I was just kidding with Jake. He gets the humor. I always look forward to his posts and yours as well Johnny. Lots of very valid insightful firsthand user experience. I can assure you that once you get used to the SG interface you will fall in love with the program. Its different from color and Resolve, but its pretty powerful and easy to use.For pure grading you will be amazed how deep it can dig into shadows and highlights.
I have not used it on any major project, just experimented that's all.
It was definitely not ready for worldwide primetime use, but its surely a welcome addition to the suite.

even though its tossed in the suite, its $900 stand alone. They need to release beta updates as they become available to justify the purchase and stop making the excuse of purchase to release. Adobe thats none of our business is it? You could have released it as a free beta yeah?

 

[Johnny Friday]

Shashbugu...
....and with all due respect:
.i don't know...easy to use, easy interface? I can appreciate that to a rocket scientist you are probably correct. I'm just a guy pointing a camera and forced to use this stuff in order to deliver my stock material when not on paying jobs....and damned if i can figure out speedgrade with my 10c tour and loading a few clips, sending and EDL etc....i've said that way too much now....but i really thought i would give it a full two hours last night and just said forget it when i again loaded up a 29.97 clip and went to settings and it seems to show me a drop down menu--but with no options...i can of course type in my own settings...just shows how it was a rushed release and has no place IMO on the open market for suckers like me.....Yes, i can see the potential, but damn, i'm dumbfounded at how software is being released nowadays and we as working people need products that just work. I love POTENTIAL---don't get me wrong, but i also love what works today--i was baffled when a few days ago i had to go back to FCP 7 to work on a project to send to COLOR (I know my way around in that platform) because i could not get accurate color monitoring in PrPro....I thought i might be able to sneak a peak and possibly use SG since it's in my suite---but jeez. i'm asking why it's there--- i do hear great things, but i want that today...i'm not going to abandon the idea...but i'm working in COLOR all this week for a prores 4444 delivery becuase NOTHING i own (CS 6; SG; AE; PrPro) delivers like apple FCP & Color for a prores deliverable on my computer and a few other working pros i know....Jake, you can tell me it "should" all look the same, but i know enough folks more versed in this than i am and we can't get a simple prores to work right...hence all the gamma shifting talk for many years...this might just be an apple thing, but whatever it is. My stock agency and every Doc deliverable i have to send is PRORES only. they don't even know what DPX is....nor did I even work with dpx till a few months ago...but does me know good for my clients nor Cineform, 10but uncompressed (some will take this)....

Trying to see if i can play with resolve now, but now my I/O box is incompatible...another dusche-bag dead end deal. So BM will only support their cards? sounds like apple and prores now....i've got a Matrox MXO2 LE....so to even try resolve and get accurate coloring i need to drop a grand for their card......and that's just to test it out. Sounds bad ass and many i know love it. but i gotta get a card here in little La Paz, Baja, Mexico---ok, 2 day drive to San Diego.....

 

[jake blackstone]

Johnny.
I post my own opinions. I'm not the type, that likes to post "+1" type of posts. If I ask why I should invest a couple of days in investigating and learning the new software, I'd like to know why first? For me, learning new software means, that it can do something, that no current crop of software can or may be it does the same thing, but more efficiently. I can't see why this simple question would be considered gruff or antagonistic. Was I disrespectful or obnoxious in asking these questions?
BTW, I always ask same questions from any other manufacturers, including BM

 

[jake blackstone]

Shashbugu...
....and with all due respect:
.i don't know...easy to use, easy interface? I can appreciate that to a rocket scientist you are probably correct. I'm just a guy pointing a camera and forced to use this stuff in order to deliver my stock material when not on paying jobs....and damned if i can figure out speedgrade with my 10c tour and loading a few clips, sending and EDL etc....i've said that way too much now....but i really thought i would give it a full two hours last night and just said forget it when i again loaded up a 29.97 clip and went to settings and it seems to show me a drop down menu--but with no options...i can of course type in my own settings...just shows how it was a rushed release and has no place IMO on the open market for suckers like me.....Yes, i can see the potential, but damn, i'm dumbfounded at how software is being released nowadays and we as working people need products that just work. I love POTENTIAL---don't get me wrong, but i also love what works today--i was baffled when a few days ago i had to go back to FCP 7 to work on a project to send to COLOR (I know my way around in that platform) because i could not get accurate color monitoring in PrPro....I thought i might be able to sneak a peak and possibly use SG since it's in my suite---but jeez. i'm asking why it's there--- i do hear great things, but i want that today...i'm not going to abandon the idea...but i'm working in COLOR all this week for a prores 4444 delivery becuase NOTHING i own (CS 6; SG; AE; PrPro) delivers like apple FCP & Color for a prores deliverable on my computer and a few other working pros i know....Jake, you can tell me it "should" all look the same, but i know enough folks more versed in this than i am and we can't get a simple prores to work right...hence all the gamma shifting talk for many years...this might just be an apple thing, but whatever it is. My stock agency and every Doc deliverable i have to send is PRORES only. they don't even know what DPX is....nor did I even work with dpx till a few months ago...but does me know good for my clients nor Cineform, 10but uncompressed (some will take this)....

Trying to see if i can play with resolve now, but now my I/O box is incompatible...another dusche-bag dead end deal. So BM will only support their cards? sounds like apple and prores now....i've got a Matrox MXO2 LE....so to even try resolve and get accurate coloring i need to drop a grand for their card......and that's just to test it out. Sounds bad ass and many i know love it. but i gotta get a card here in little La Paz, Baja, Mexico---ok, 2 day drive to San Diego.....

Look who sounds gruff now:devil:
I feel your pain Johhny. But may be it's time you hired someone, who can walk you trough your troubles. A while back I suggested to you, that you may need to look into legal vs. full range in Resolve. Oh wait, your hardware isn't compatible with Resolve. And that is BM's fault how?

 

[jake blackstone]

New features hmm...lol... Compared to Resolve, lets see, I'll have to consult the manual. ...Wait no manual. emmm okay errr, features,

Well for one it plays back realtime all effects, at least 4 layers.
It has a nice splash screen
multiple playheads to compare frames or shots
keyframe based precise tracking
creating quick look dailies

It has the potential to rival Baselight @$995 by CS8.

Anyway Jake, this is Reduser/Adobeuser if you don't like it SG post somewhere else like in Davinci user thread. We don't like your attitude. ut:

Yeah, Resolve has failed spectacularly on the use of cool splash screen. Compare that to any SC6 app. They are gorgeous. I'm keeping fingers crossed for more innovative splash screen for version 9:iagree:

 

[Johnny Friday]

Look who sounds gruff now:devil:
I feel your pain Johhny. But may be it's time you hired someone, who can walk you trough your troubles. A while back I suggested to you, that you may need to look into legal vs. full range in Resolve. Oh wait, your hardware isn't compatible with Resolve. And that is BM's fault how?

Touche! my rant is directed at the giant corp. Adobe which kinda feels right...but you are correct in one way and another not so sure. but we leave it at that. Why is it BM's fault? Well, to come out with a piece of software that i hear works great, but then they don't open it up to other I/O devices? Not sure what you mean by how is it their fault, but seems counter-productive to keep the loop closed on software these days....Hey, Resolve released a free Lite version...i downloaded it, but now want to try it out, but again does me no good w/out proper monitoring...I'm also monitoring in Rec709....and can produce color accurate results in Color every time to Prores....but NEVER using PrPro or AE. Close and most folks don't see it, but i do. I even had a colorist here with me for ten days and worked on a project 3 years ago where we were faced with this same problem and $$ was not an object for that project...in the end, sent to DPX and worked i think in smoke/luster....nothing i have here...but i certainly don't want to debate you Jake on what i have and don't and what you have....etc....it should be much simpler than this....I'm not too bad on the computer and learn this stuff quickly.....and been doing it a long time in FCP/Color...--wait, off trak. Speedgrade--i'll try this another night. But trying Resolve as soon as ii buy a card--and will do that this week. I do this far too often to spend time running circles.....and what good is all this resolution if i have to convert and color back in prores and work in prores....would like to work in raw then downsample to prores....

 

[jake blackstone]

Touche! my rant is directed at the giant corp. Adobe which kinda feels right...but you are correct in one way and another not so sure. but we leave it at that. Why is it BM's fault? Well, to come out with a piece of software that i hear works great, but then they don't open it up to other I/O devices? Not sure what you mean by how is it their fault, but seems counter-productive to keep the loop closed on software these days....Hey, Resolve released a free Lite version...i downloaded it, but now want to try it out, but again does me no good w/out proper monitoring...I'm also monitoring in Rec709....and can produce color accurate results in Color every time to Prores....but NEVER using PrPro or AE. Close and most folks don't see it, but i do. I even had a colorist here with me for ten days and worked on a project 3 years ago where we were faced with this same problem and $$ was not an object for that project...in the end, sent to DPX and worked i think in smoke/luster....nothing i have here...but i certainly don't want to debate you Jake on what i have and don't and what you have....etc....it should be much simpler than this....I'm not too bad on the computer and learn this stuff quickly.....and been doing it a long time in FCP/Color...--wait, off trak. Speedgrade--i'll try this another night. But trying Resolve as soon as ii buy a card--and will do that this week. I do this far too often to spend time running circles.....and what good is all this resolution if i have to convert and color back in prores and work in prores....would like to work in raw then downsample to prores....

Get a Resolve Lite. Tens of thousands of users can't all be wrong...

 

[Paul Provost]

resolve will output from any BMD card now I believe. less than $300

 

[shashbugu]

Shashbugu...
....and with all due respect:
.i don't know...easy to use, easy interface? I can appreciate that to a rocket scientist you are probably correct. I'm just a guy pointing a camera and forced to use this stuff in order to deliver my stock material when not on paying jobs....and damned if i can figure out speedgrade with my 10c tour and loading a few clips, sending and EDL etc....i've said that way too much now....but i really thought i would give it a full two hours last night and just said forget it when i again loaded up a 29.97 clip and went to settings and it seems to show me a drop down menu--but with no options...i can of course type in my own settings...just shows how it was a rushed release and has no place IMO on the open market for suckers like me.....Yes, i can see the potential, but damn, i'm dumbfounded at how software is being released nowadays and we as working people need products that just work. I love POTENTIAL---don't get me wrong, but i also love what works today--i was baffled when a few days ago i had to go back to FCP 7 to work on a project to send to COLOR (I know my way around in that platform) because i could not get accurate color monitoring in PrPro....I thought i might be able to sneak a peak and possibly use SG since it's in my suite---but jeez. i'm asking why it's there--- i do hear great things, but i want that today...i'm not going to abandon the idea...but i'm working in COLOR all this week for a prores 4444 delivery becuase NOTHING i own (CS 6; SG; AE; PrPro) delivers like apple FCP & Color for a prores deliverable on my computer and a few other working pros i know....Jake, you can tell me it "should" all look the same, but i know enough folks more versed in this than i am and we can't get a simple prores to work right...hence all the gamma shifting talk for many years...this might just be an apple thing, but whatever it is. My stock agency and every Doc deliverable i have to send is PRORES only. they don't even know what DPX is....nor did I even work with dpx till a few months ago...but does me know good for my clients nor Cineform, 10but uncompressed (some will take this)....

Trying to see if i can play with resolve now, but now my I/O box is incompatible...another dusche-bag dead end deal. So BM will only support their cards? sounds like apple and prores now....i've got a Matrox MXO2 LE....so to even try resolve and get accurate coloring i need to drop a grand for their card......and that's just to test it out. Sounds bad ass and many i know love it. but i gotta get a card here in little La Paz, Baja, Mexico---ok, 2 day drive to San Diego.....

ooooh!!!! I feel your pain bro. But simmer down a little lets take it one step at a time. Prores Workflow--done

 

[shashbugu]

Touche! my rant is directed at the giant corp. Adobe which kinda feels right...but you are correct in one way and another not so sure. but we leave it at that. Why is it BM's fault? Well, to come out with a piece of software that i hear works great, but then they don't open it up to other I/O devices? Not sure what you mean by how is it their fault, but seems counter-productive to keep the loop closed on software these days....Hey, Resolve released a free Lite version...i downloaded it, but now want to try it out, but again does me no good w/out proper monitoring...I'm also monitoring in Rec709....and can produce color accurate results in Color every time to Prores....but NEVER using PrPro or AE. Close and most folks don't see it, but i do. I even had a colorist here with me for ten days and worked on a project 3 years ago where we were faced with this same problem and $$ was not an object for that project...in the end, sent to DPX and worked i think in smoke/luster....nothing i have here...but i certainly don't want to debate you Jake on what i have and don't and what you have....etc....it should be much simpler than this....I'm not too bad on the computer and learn this stuff quickly.....and been doing it a long time in FCP/Color...--wait, off trak. Speedgrade--i'll try this another night. But trying Resolve as soon as ii buy a card--and will do that this week. I do this far too often to spend time running circles.....and what good is all this resolution if i have to convert and color back in prores and work in prores....would like to work in raw then downsample to prores....

Actually you have it the other way round, gamma issues are in FCP not Adobe suite. Adobe automatically corrects the quicktime gamma on output. THAT IS A FACT!!

I have crash problems with, Adobe, FCP, Resolve, Color and Microsoft word on all our five mac systems. The only product that have never crashed before are AE, Smoke, and skype. Not once ever. Who really knows what makes apps crash.

If FCP is working for you then why bother switching? if you need to edit in Raw. Get a 32GB ram minimum and plus a Redrocket.

you are asking all the right questions but making wrong decisions and assumptions.

Take this cue, the biggest movies on the planet all transcode from redcode to, exr, dpx, tiff, prores, dnxhd etc, there is a reason why.

 

[Johnny Friday]

Shashbugu: i do own a rocket card, have 32gb ram, Quadro 4000 card as well....I'm not trying to fight the system mind you...only going on what was the advertising hype....If x claims y and you get z, well, then there's a problem. But we play in very different fields as well....you are talking about features---i work in docs and tv 95% of time....so Prores is king here. Yes, if it works use it--i get that, but that's not really an answer for why X is not performing as implied/hyped or sold. We all are looking for modern solutions here and i'm just bummed that i could not get what i wanted out of a particular software and as it was touted. I still can't edit in RAW on FCP....so my solution is sort of indian style....edit in PrPro, XML to color now...to convince me of how things are done in hollywood is a moot point....the tv industry is a long way behind. In fact all of my deliverables are still required on HDCAM.....yep, tape. Not up to me....but that's what the broadcasters want. I'm trying to figure out the one off solution....edit/grade/cut on one platform or suite....or make it easy anyway so that the one edit/cut/grade works for tv and then my stock for feature or whatever. I'm also working in dome and Imax projections...so getting those results is important....

as for the gamma issue....i dont know who's to blame, but i cannot get good resultes using adobe....and adobe has addressed this in CS 4 and said was fixed in CS 5...but go tell that to users....just real world, ground floor what i'm seeing.

 

[Rudi Herbert]

Well, in poor Johnny's defense, if you can call a badass like Johnny "poor"...

I've also tried to help him with suggestions about workflow, the fundamental difference is that I work on PC and he on a MAC, and I've never had to endure the pain of gamma shifts of QT. Johnny is not making the wrong assumptions, on the contrary, he assumes that certain things should be far easier and predictable by now, but aren't. Here are some of my own complaints/questions. Anyone with proven answers, please jump in and illuminate us:

1- Resolve. Even the full $990 version, what do you need to get accurate monitoring out of your system, so you can check your grading on a proper monitor? What BMD cards will do this, and then, since it would used only for this, what is the cheapest of those cards? Of course, it should be 10 bit capable and output through something from this century like HDMI or Display, not SDI. And of course, it should let itself be used only for Resolve, not load a ton of useless settings into your editing app, etc.

2- AE. The greatest do-a-bit-of-everything program ever created. Alas, with great awesomeness comes great disappointment. AE is color managed, but none of the grading plug ins that work with it are, nor any of the Magic Bullet apps, neither the otherwise great Color Finesse, etc. Or am I missing something? So while you may set up your color space for, say, REC 709, on AE, none of these plugins will follow suit, so you end up with different looks on both screens. Is there a way around this?

3- PPro. It has a few grading filters that are YUV to RGB corrected, which should mean you get extremely reliable output from those filters onto a monitor. But then, those filters are kinda crappy, and behold, the same correction from the Fast Color Corrector yields appreciably different results than from the Three Wheel Color Corrector. WTF? So what good does the YUV-RGB correction really does? Why can't PPro be color managed like AE? And why can't all grading filters across Adobe apps be YUV-RGB corrected, so that the ones that actually work well, we can use more often?

4- Finally, I would be delighted to hear complete set up recommendations from the people whose posts lead me to believe they have solved these issues that afflict people like Johnny or myself. For example, with Resolve, what I/O card do you use, what specs on monitors are needed, etc, etc. And the same for other apps out there.

Like Johnny, I have put thousands upon thousands of hard earned $ into my systems, and yes, I have managed ways to work it so that I can trust what I'm seeing and so that I can do what I want to do, but it's come at the steep price of endless workarounds, back and forths, and whatnot. I thought the time of the heavy iron was over, but this light iron of nowadays is neither that light ($$$) nor that easy or simple to work with. And, at the end of the day, color correction, color spaces and the like is all about math, numbers that are measurable, quantifiable, and thus, should be repeatable. Only they're not. So, those with concrete ideas and suggestions, lay it out there if you really "feel" us.

 

[Johnny Friday]

Bout time you joined in Rudi....i felt like a loan fly on a wall avoiding the swatter....im not too new at this myself...but i'm also not a dedicated colorist--and lately i find that this is my NEXT item to tackle....i can get by in most any system editing and i'm a HACK for sure...but i can get it done....the Color thing is certainly crazy....but most definitely what good is any of this if we don't get all color effects and output on the same playing field...i feel like i'm trying to catch a magic bullet with my teeth....not one has been caught...but damn it was hard to swallow....I'll shell out the $$ for the BM card, but i'm walking blindly in that i'm chasing that bullet again.

**anyone think we should have started a new thread here? sorry to take speedgrade thread off this planet.

 

[shashbugu]

hmmm... lest I say... hear ye hear ye... Rudi and Johnny we are all in the same boat when it comes to little iron, you need lots of components to make it all work. That's why we shelled out big bucks to get Smack. But Alas even smoke is not the magicbullet app its marketed to be. As for color management stick with resolve and BM or AJA and Smoke.

 

[Mark Wilkinson]

The SG release is a little disappointing - but mostly because my hopes and dreams for a fully integrated app in CS6 weren't realized. Haven't given up, though - they just bought the thing. For now, r3d in Premiere then redlogFilm DPX into SG seems like a pretty legit option mathematically speaking. The edl conform route seemed a little cumbersome - and the lack of XML support was glaring - especially since the Automatic Duck team is over at Adobe now (or so I heard). I can't image it will be long before they roll that in.

Resolve is pretty great and I have very few complaints about integration with Adobe tools.

Meantime, I'll try to be patient. Truth is, the color tools we have available on the desktop now are amazing.