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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Speedbooster tests

Jeffery Anderson said:
BMPC the Circle of Confusion would too small, he's using a Emount to EF mount, because the Sony E Mount is s35... and you can use s35 glass up about 24mm...

Just for Note, the E-mount Flange distance is different than Red's Lens to Sensor/OLPF and why the OP removed the OLPF to use the adapted Metabones Speedbooster on a Red Epic Dragon.


Would be interesting if someone at Metabones saw this and created a Speedbooster for for S35 with the OLPF built into it
Click to expand...

You're missing what I'm saying. I'm saying that, instead of using the FF35-to-APS-C glass, which is physically too big for the OLPF hole/bracket/gate, maybe the BMPCC one will fit directly into the OLPF hole/bracket/gate without modification (as that rear element of the BMPCC speed booster looks substantially smaller and protrudes quite a bit, getting it closer to the OLPF without needing to grind it down or make a custom OLPF bracket). The downside is that image circle is smaller and may only cover ~4k-ish, but it'd still be FF35 FOV (because it's .58x instead of .71x) and it'll actually increase transmission by 1+2/3rds a stop (2/3rds more than the FF35-to-APS-C speedboosters).

All I'm saying is, for this to be more than an experiment, you shouldn't have to modify the camera or hack out the OLPF. The problem is the RED interchangeable mount plane is about 20mm from the sensor plane (which is already longer than E-Mount's 18mm or mFT's 19.25mm). Worse still, the rear elements of the speedboosters actually stick out at least another ~5mm, so we're basically 8-12mm shy of having this work (essentially) out of the box with existing optical elements.

I actually emailed Metabones when RED opened up to 3rd party camera hardware during the DSMC2/Weapon announcement(s)... The response from the support staff was essentially, 'I'll forward this along to development, and they'll get back to you!' Obviously they didn't.

I think they could make it, but it'd require another optical reducer to be designed. And maybe something that's only a ~0.75-0.8x to shirk FF35 down to MX's/Dragon's/Helium's ~1.2-1.3x sensor size (presuming the smaller reduction makes it easier to fit in the limited space of a DSMC EF or Nikon sized mount.)
 
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Mike P. said:
You're missing what I'm saying. I'm saying that, instead of using the FF35-to-APS-C glass, which is physically too big for the OLPF hole/bracket/gate, maybe the BMPCC one will fit directly into the OLPF hole/bracket/gate without modification (as that rear element of the BMPCC speed booster looks substantially smaller and protrudes quite a bit, getting it closer to the OLPF without needing to grind it down or make a custom OLPF bracket). The downside is that image circle is smaller and may only cover ~4k-ish, but it'd still be FF35 FOV (because it's .58x instead of .71x) and it'll actually increase transmission by 1+2/3rds a stop (2/3rds more than the FF35-to-APS-C speedboosters).

All I'm saying is, for this to be more than an experiment, you shouldn't have to modify the camera or hack out the OLPF. The problem is the RED interchangeable mount plane is about 20mm from the sensor plane (which is already longer than E-Mount's 18mm or mFT's 19.25mm). Worse still, the rear elements of the speedboosters actually stick out at least another ~5mm, so we're basically 8-12mm shy of having this work (essentially) out of the box with existing optical elements.

I actually emailed Metabones when RED opened up to 3rd party camera hardware during the DSMC2/Weapon announcement(s)... The response from the support staff was essentially, 'I'll forward this along to development, and they'll get back to you!' Obviously they didn't.

I think they could make it, but it'd require another optical reducer to be designed. And maybe something that's only a ~0.75-0.8x to shirk FF35 down to MX's/Dragon's/Helium's ~1.2-1.3x sensor size (presuming the smaller reduction makes it easier to fit in the limited space of a DSMC EF or Nikon sized mount.)
Click to expand...

Agreed, The image circle created by the BMC BMPC Speedbooster is too small for a Super35 sized sensor, the E-Mount isn't.

The problem is the OLPF and the Flange Distance, this knowledge is from writing Metabones myself and asking them about years ago, but now you can remove the actual OLPF and sorta changed the game...

I think Metabones would do it for Raven or Scarlet-W, because those consumers would probably use Photo Lenses, but you would need to show a substantial consumer following (e.g. Sales), which Scarlet-W has... Personally, I don't enough about the science

you could just bounce a fucking HMI into the sky and back up the camera instead though
 
I'd argue that it doesn't matter as much that the image circle is smaller on the BMPCC speed booster, if by using that optical element allows you make a plug&play adapter without having mod/hack the RED (as that'd still be a better option even if it's limited to ~4k/smaller than s35 sensor window). You'd still end up with a ~FF35 FOV plus 1+2/3rd more light, which are the two main reasons you'd use a speed booster anyway.

The only other way I could see it happening without modding the olpf/camera (like James has done) would be if Metabones make a RED DSMC Canon/Nikon Mount (not adapter, but entire mount) with the reducer inside. Presuming a less aggressive reduction of 0.75-0.8x (instead of 0.58, .64, or .71x) would allow them to make the optics thinner, and hence fit without having to mod the OLPF compartment, that'd be the best option.

Can't remove the mount on Raven, so I doubt it's possible (doesn't seem feasible to have the user precisely mount just an optical element inside the mount?)

Again, for this to be more than just experimentation, you shouldn't have to mod the camera.
 
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yeah probably best bet is build in the OLPF into the Speedbooster


 
Here is a little test I shot a few days ago in New York using my S35 speedbooster glass at 6k. At 6k its really pushing the speedbooster as you can see, 5k is its sweet spot but for a bit of imperfections I kind of like 6k, 6kws to knock off the top corners that vignette on some lenses.
https://vimeo.com/184576821

Description from Vimeo:
Red Epic Dragon with a 'S35 Speedbooster' using the LowLight RED OLPF. Although 6k on some lenses can be used as shown for beyond 'full frame' (the 50mm Nikon covers the needed area) with this setup it works as designed at 5k.
At 5k its slightly wider than say full frame on the Canon 5D3. At 6k you get more distortions in the corners on some lenses but I happen to like the aberration in the from the larger image size, otherwise you need to shoot 5k.

Shot with a pancake 50mm Nikon E-Series, a 28mm Nikon and a 135mm very small M42 mount Zeiss.
The speed booster lens elements are hand assembled and not really hitting the image plane needed, but it was only set by eye, you can see this tilt shift effect where focus is not on an even plane.
However I'm having fun with that quirkiness and although there will be a machined version soon I think I'll keep this one as is.
 
James do you have a picture of the RED without anything installed? Are you actually taking out the interchangeable OLPF and then slotting your handmade adapter into that hole into the sensor compartment?

edit: Oh and wicked test footy!
 
Hi Mike, you pop out the standard interchangeable OLPF and pop in a custom one that houses the separate elements of the speedbooster glass. It still has the OLPF in the image path though. I did have it without at one point but I had too much aliasing, but it was great to shoot lower resolutions without the OLPF just a IR cut filter as the image is much sharper than standard. You need a custom Lens mount though as the flange distance is beyond any sensor flange adjustment, so far I have made a Nikon and EF version.
I'm in the process of making a machined version that has a bit more quality to it.

Works well on Epic Dragon bodies that have removable OLPF trays, I don't however think the Weapon bodies can be used as the OLPF trays and optical glass above the sensor are much closer to the front of the body, maybe this was to control flare etc. I'm assuming this would be the same problem with the Epic-W's but that would be a perfect match for that sensor size.
 
Oh, so you're actually changing the OpticalElement-to-F-mount distance? Is that because the optical element isn't close enough to the sensor?

In that case, with a properly designed optical element, I wonder if it's feasible to move everything forward (again, making it as plug & play as all of the currently available DSMC1/2 mounts.)
 
Yep I'm reducing the distance on the lens mount. 'Properly' designed element being the operative word. That would be great but its not on the shelf so the R&D would drive it to not worth it. Be great though.
 
True, though I'd argue that pre-metabones there were *no* elements and now they've got at least 3 designs... Also, the $100 knock-off focal reducers perform surprisingly well, so there's still a possibility (though they probably didn't design anything)...

Quick, someone email Caldwell! Or maybe Kipon...
 
This is a great thread. I'd love to get something like this for my helium.

It would provide an awesome fov, without shooting full res. Clients would love that!
 
After I got my Epic-W, I only wish this is going to happen in my life time...

Just shoot epic-w with 240fps, you will see how crazy crop factor you are going to facing lol.

Ugh, if I knew some information about flange distance, and all sort, I really wanna try this myself in the house.
 
I can't even use it on my Raven and I'm excited about it's development. :)
 
Whilst building a custom Nikon F-Mount to fit onto a BM URSA 4K PL-Mount camera body, I jigged a BMPCC speedbooster optical cell inside the throat of the URSA camera whilst I had the mount off it. The BMPCC optic does convey a corner vignette on the V1 URSA's APS/C 21mm sensor. There is also significant and unacceptable distortion of the image towards the edges.

The 0.71 optical cell from the "Ultra" series of Metabones Speedboosters would be the better choice. It will fit within the throat of the BM big URSA and does not penetrate to within 4mm of the sensor as the BMPCC Speedbooster optical cell's rear face does. The BM URSA's IR filter still has to be moved.

One issue which may cause an issue on the RED camera family is that the flange face of the lens in the case of the BMPCC has to be moved about 8mm rearwards. Is there enough real estate in the front of the RED camera body to accommodate this. The 0.71 Speedbooster optic may require less rearward positioning of the lens flange face. I do not have a specimen to test with.
 
Hey, I have been looking for a speed boster like gadget to mount Nikon glass on DSMC2 cameras everywhere. Are there going to be machined versions of your product James ? If so - when ?
If not - does anyone know optics people who would be able to manufacture something like it and would be up for the challenge ?
Best,
Jan
 
Maik Müller QUOTE: "Also don't forget, Metabones has a few different speedboosters. Those optics from the BMPCC-version are interesting too. :)"

The image circle on the BMPCC Speedbooster is too small for a 21mm URSA sensor. It vignettes into the corners and there is significant distortion at the sides of the image. The 0.71 Ultra optical cell from Metabones Speedboosters should work better but likely will only be good for a 21mm wide sensor or windowed larger sensors.
 
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