Sound Devices v. Zaxcom

[Tim Duran]

No rental house or pro sound people near me, so I need to buy and hope. Red sound has been fine for me, but I have nothing to compare it to. I probably don't need a Zaxcom or 788t; the 744t should be fine. But my philosophy has been to buy the best and most versitile I can since can't afford to make a mistake and there is no one near by to sell it to. There isn't much difference in price between the 744t and 788t, but a big difference when you get to the Zaxcom level. It seems that the Zaxcom has more to offer, but I don't know if this is something that is worth the extra $4,000+ or can be had at same quality through another vendor.

I've had several sound classes at UCLA, so I know the importance of sound to my productions. I can afford the extra $4,000, but I can't afford to spend it on something so technical that neither me or my sound helpers will ever be able to manage correctly. And the extra $4,000 might be better placed in upgrading my mics, though I do use professional quality Senns and Schops now--but just one of each.

NOTE: most of my work is dialogue driven, small to medium sized sets (25' x 30' or so) and some exteriors. I'm approaching this from the producer/director POV.

I am very impressed with the depth of knowledge some of you have and share with Reduser. I look forwarding to your thoughts. I find some web chatter on Sound Devices, but almost nothing on Zaxcom other than press releases and spec sheets.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

First step, make sure you have a good sound person who will be using this gear. Sounds like you might based on the types of projects you do and the current choices of microphones. If the person doing the sound is not qualified, I say neither of these devices are worth investing in. But, I'll assume you have the person.

Sound devices offers a lot of bang for the buck. With the addition of the 788T, they have really stepped it up. I had a 744T and sold it because I wasn't personally doing sound on the projects I have been working on and it spent a lot of time on the shelf. But I LOVED that machine. With the CL-8 controller you have a very powerful field recording system. I know there will be arguments for Zaxcom, Cantar, etc. and those arguments may be valid, but I have had nothing but great experience with Sound Devices, both with their products and with their support team.

I think you would be more than happy with this product. Just my .02

 

[Frank Weeks]

I use a Sound Devise 302 with my Red. Only three channel but very solid. The 744T and 788T would be great for the money. Good luck.

 

[Rob Castiglione]

Sound Devices recorders all the way. One of the best and most loved piece of equipment I own. Sometimes for absolutely critical sound I might put a more classy preamp in the path like the Broadhurst Gardens no 1 but I whenever i come back to the Sound Devices i am always astonished by how much quality those guys have packed into such a little box

 

[Dave Blackham]

Sound Devices recorders all the way. One of the best and most loved piece of equipment I own. Sometimes for absolutely critical sound I might put a more classy preamp in the path like the Broadhurst Gardens no 1 but I whenever i come back to the Sound Devices i am always astonished by how much quality those guys have packed into such a little box

Frank and Rob are correct in my view go Sound Devices. Thats not to say the Zaxcom isnt good but more people seem to be using the Sound Devices 744 and 788 perfectly well and are happy with the recorders. If the question is how can I improve the audio quality then you may like to consider an external mic preamp and record line level to Red the DAV BG1 is great as Rob said but main powered, you could also consider SQN mixers which also have great mic preamps in them. From a pure Audiophile perspective most discussions seem to be about the selection of the mic and mic preamp and what sounds 'best' but that is a relative term and also depends on what you consider to be best and what subject your recording. Search on gearslutz.com and you find some useful samples for comparison, its largely a studio based site but the samples should give an idea of whats available.

After the choice of mic and mic pre the quality of the A to D convertor is also key and we are pretty well have to use what is with in Red One for on board recording. For the most part its perfectly fine but for any very critical music recordist they probably would have a separate recording set up in any event so may well be a non issue.

Re budget, The other thing not to over look is mic placement, firstly it has the biggest impact on audio quality, secondly getting it right is free. Assuming you have a good mic MKH40/50/60 or CMIT, or mic with a well controlled polar pattern. The first rule of audio recording is its more important to select what the mic isn't looking at than what it is looking at. In other words you may find that you can find several positions for a mic that work perfectly well for the subject but if the mic is also positioned such as its picking up some undesirable sound then find a position that it is looking at the subject and not at the undesired sound. For our use with Red it may be you need to back the mic off to the camera for fan noise or whatever and also the mic may well be in shot which the DOP may have a strong views about which will require a compromise for the mic position.

 

[Trailangel]

If looking for 8 channels of audio consider this new Tascam.. not on the market yet, but probably in a couple of months.

http://www.tascam.com/products/hs-p82.html

Otherwise go with Sound Devices. Leave the Zaxcom to Pro Soundman.

 

[Tim Duran]

Guys, thanks so much for your help

The Tascam looks pretty sexy, but I'm always cautious when some key spec is missing such as weight

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

If looking for 8 channels of audio consider this new Tascam.. not on the market yet, but probably in a couple of months.

http://www.tascam.com/products/hs-p82.html

Otherwise go with Sound Devices. Leave the Zaxcom to Pro Soundman.

In looking at the Tascam I have to wonder what the hell anyone is doing including a PS/2 keyboard port on a device manufactured in the 21st century?

Other than that its a very nice looking piece of kit.

B&H has it as a special order for $5499 and ships in 7-14 days.

Front End Audio, whom I've never heard of or dealt with, has it at $4999, and their sites says they ship within 24 hours.

I'm certainly going to give the unit a very serious look. There are a couple of features I really like about the Sound Devices 788T, mostly the internal hard drive. There is only $500 difference, so if I don't get to test extensively I'll probably go with the Sound Devices.

 

[Trailangel]

$500 difference.. go with the Sound Devices!

 

[Tom Visser]

The Zaxcom is not simply a recorder. It also an integrated system with the "Zax-net" features. With Zax-net, you can decentralize the recording devices, while retaining centralized command and control. Through the IFB system, the mixer can remotely adjust microphone gain levels. Zaxcom excels for reality TV shoots and larger film productions. I personally use the Nagra VI and although I don't feel I can justify the purchase of a Zaxcom system, they do happen to do some pretty unique things. When I do purchase an IFB system, it will probably be an Zaxcom system, even though I'm not going to be using the recorder. (and without the recorder, the IFB is limited to basic functionality, but even so, is pretty price competitive and offers some cool timecode features absent from other competitors' models)

Here are some videos that describe Zax-Net.
http://www.coffeyinteractive.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1713&sid=763a3ae0dc595409692f0eb8d34f7b8a

...and of course at the end of this video, shows the proper method for adjusting a pot on a mixer...
http://www.coffeyinteractive.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1777&sid=763a3ae0dc595409692f0eb8d34f7b8a

A "best of" sampling the recorders out there or soon to be released and my opinion...

ENTRY LEVEL > Sound Devices 552 5 channel mixer with a flash memory based recorder. Great value, part of the cost savings precludes an onboard timecode generator, but the device can read and stamp files from other timecode sourcs, such as a lock-it-box or a camera.

ENTRY LEVEL > Nagra LB timecode (not released) is a 2 channel mixer with both internal and external flash media. Sacrifices flexibility and mixer features of the 552 for slightly better preamps and on board timecode generator.

HIGH END > Sound Devices 788t 8 input recorder that can record up to 12 tracks (inputs + mixes). There are some negatives, such as slow response of the CL-8 and awkward ergonomics. In my mind, I would have appreciated a little less miniaturization and maybe fewer channels.

HIGH END > Nagra VI is a 6 input and 6 track recorder. The next firmware update will turn it into an 8 track recorder. I firmly believe that a mix delivered to post should be no more than 8 tracks, unless your doing reality TV. 6 ISO + 2 MIX would be the norm. There is no control surface options for the unit, although it has a MIDI port that was designed for eventual control over the mixer... Nagra has been slow on getting this feature enabled. The mic pres, in my OPINION, are a little bit better than the Sound Devices units and I feel the limiter is more transparent. It is big. It is a "manly" recorder with a nice mechanical rotary switch for functions and a excellent toggle switch based monitoring section... no menus do navigate through to perform basic audio functions. Again, it is big, not impossible for over the shoulder use, but certainly not designed for it, like the 788t.

HIGH END > Zaxcom Fusion / Deva vary on the inputs and mixes pending the exact model and software license purchased. Designed by the same people who made the Dr. Who set pieces but from an engineering standpoint, pack everything under the sun. If you do sound in mission critical environments that require lots of moving parts and flexibility, there is nothing that touches the capabilities of a Zaxcom. It is definitely the wrong product to buy, though, for most shoppers.

 

[Dave Blackham]

The Zaxcom is not simply a recorder. It also an integrated system with the "Zax-net" features. With Zax-net, you can decentralize the recording devices, while retaining centralized command and control. Through the IFB system, the mixer can remotely adjust microphone gain levels. Zaxcom excels for reality TV shoots and larger film productions. I personally use the Nagra VI and although I don't feel I can justify the purchase of a Zaxcom system, they do happen to do some pretty unique things. When I do purchase an IFB system, it will probably be an Zaxcom system, even though I'm not going to be using the recorder. (and without the recorder, the IFB is limited to basic functionality, but even so, is pretty price competitive and offers some cool timecode features absent from other competitors' models)

Here are some videos that describe Zax-Net.
http://www.coffeyinteractive.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1713&sid=763a3ae0dc595409692f0eb8d34f7b8a

...and of course at the end of this video, shows the proper method for adjusting a pot on a mixer...
http://www.coffeyinteractive.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1777&sid=763a3ae0dc595409692f0eb8d34f7b8a

A "best of" sampling the recorders out there or soon to be released and my opinion...

ENTRY LEVEL > Sound Devices 552 5 channel mixer with a flash memory based recorder. Great value, part of the cost savings precludes an onboard timecode generator, but the device can read and stamp files from other timecode sourcs, such as a lock-it-box or a camera.

ENTRY LEVEL > Nagra LB timecode (not released) is a 2 channel mixer with both internal and external flash media. Sacrifices flexibility and mixer features of the 552 for slightly better preamps and on board timecode generator.

HIGH END > Sound Devices 788t 8 input recorder that can record up to 12 tracks (inputs + mixes). There are some negatives, such as slow response of the CL-8 and awkward ergonomics. In my mind, I would have appreciated a little less miniaturization and maybe fewer channels.

HIGH END > Nagra VI is a 6 input and 6 track recorder. The next firmware update will turn it into an 8 track recorder. I firmly believe that a mix delivered to post should be no more than 8 tracks, unless your doing reality TV. 6 ISO + 2 MIX would be the norm. There is no control surface options for the unit, although it has a MIDI port that was designed for eventual control over the mixer... Nagra has been slow on getting this feature enabled. The mic pres, in my OPINION, are a little bit better than the Sound Devices units and I feel the limiter is more transparent. It is big. It is a "manly" recorder with a nice mechanical rotary switch for functions and a excellent toggle switch based monitoring section... no menus do navigate through to perform basic audio functions. Again, it is big, not impossible for over the shoulder use, but certainly not designed for it, like the 788t.

HIGH END > Zaxcom Fusion / Deva vary on the inputs and mixes pending the exact model and software license purchased. Designed by the same people who made the Dr. Who set pieces but from an engineering standpoint, pack everything under the sun. If you do sound in mission critical environments that require lots of moving parts and flexibility, there is nothing that touches the capabilities of a Zaxcom. It is definitely the wrong product to buy, though, for most shoppers.

Great post, thanks or this info.

I firmly believe that a mix delivered to post should be no more than 8 tracks, unless your doing reality TV.

I completely agree with this statement. Providing a small number of well mixed tracks is the way recordists have been trained for a good while now and I hope this will continue. For the most part if there was better use of recordists on location providing good audio thats well mixed then I believe this would make for genuinely better productions. Too many discreet tracks just moves the whole mix decision to a later process. Some times this can be essential but for the most part it may not be necessary.

 

[JonathanF]

Tom is right, the Sound Devices and Zaxcom aren't really in the same league. Both are good recorders but the Zaxcom, for a host of reasons, is a great recorder.

I have used both and the Zaxcom's D/A design is far superior. The quality is largely subjective in the mid range recorders, but at the upper end like this, those few thousand $$$ extra make a lot of difference.

Just one point worth noting: the SD is capable of recording at 24 bit, 96.096 kHz sample rate, the Zaxcom can do 24 bit 192kHz.

I'm currently comparing the Zaxcom to the Cantar and Nagra VI. (and seeking opinions from those who have used all 3) before we purchase our new recorder. The main issue for us is the D/A quality. According to our sound engineer the SD couldn't compete in that arena. Listening to stuff recorded on the Deva 5.8 vs. the SD I have to agree.

Hope that helps,

J

 

[Trailangel]

Will you be recording Classical Music.. or are you just doing Dialog?
I challenge anyone to view/listen to the final product/movie and pick out which recorder was used during production.... YOU CAN"T.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Will you be recording Classical Music.. or are you just doing Dialog?
I challenge anyone to view/listen to the final product/movie and pick out which recorder was used during production.... YOU CAN"T.

I have to agree, any of these recorders are pretty fantastic. 24 bit 96KHz is plenty for any dialog recording and on set sound. In fact its almost always overkill.

I am not particularly overawed with Zaxcomm gear except for one feature that really ought to become an industry standard:

Zaxcomm wireless transmitters can record the audio pre-transmission. Think about it- never lose a take to wireless trouble ever again.

I work in the DC area. With all the civilian, military and government radio traffic here, something like this is essential to getting reliable use of wireless mics. Almost every shoot faces losses to interference.

Its a feature that gives me a great deal of peace of mind.

For now my planned purchases are Soundevices 788T mixer/recorder and Zaxcomm wireless transmitter/recievers.

Although I may face an immediate need to get a lower end wireless set up- maybe audio technica gear- very low end.

Budgets suck. Anyone wanna give me the winning lottery number?

 

[JonathanF]

Will you be recording Classical Music.. or are you just doing Dialog?
I challenge anyone to view/listen to the final product/movie and pick out which recorder was used during production.... YOU CAN"T.

I know a few audio engineers that would take issue with that statement.

The D/A design can have a significant effect on the quality of the recording.

Another feature of the Zaxcom is it's ability to record audio at multiple sample rates for post. If telecine requires 48.048kHz files for pull down and Protools systems require audio files at 48.000kHz, and the Deva can output files at any sample rate, even if the desired sample rate is different from the original recording.

You can also simultaneously record 3 rates to 3 different media with the Deva recorders.

Finally there's the proprietary ZAX file format. Rather than regurgitate something on zax myself I'll just paste what Trew has to say about it:

ZAXCOM has developed a new file format designated “.ZAX”. This file format overcomes several limitations that are inherent in AES31, Broadcast WAV and SD2 files. This format incorporates loss-less compression and optimal audio interleaving techniques that allow a DVD to transfer audio at rates typically three times faster than is now possible.Postproduction will also notice a dramatic reduction in transfer times as they load .ZAX files onto an edit system. This file format includes loss-less data compression that is similar in concept to ZIP files on a PC. A utility program that Deva stores on every DVD disk is used to transfer the .ZAX files to a PC or Mac. This utility allows postproduction to choose from any standard file format or sample rate during the transfer process. This allows post to decide which of the standard audio file formats they prefer to use at their leisure. The great part about this is that sound mixer no longer has to worry if the correct decision has been made concerning the needs of the post house. Just output a .ZAX file and post can convert it into whatever format they need.

The big breakthrough of .ZAX files is that it makes file formats and sample rates irrelevant just like it was with analog tape. It also triples the effective storage capability of all disks using the format. Using the .ZAX file format it will be possible to store an entire motion picture production on a single hard drive.

It is important to emphasize that this system does not use lossy compression techniques. The final audio files are bit for bit exactly the same as the original recorded audio.
​

I'm not saying that the SD recorders aren't good, they are, very good. But the Zaxcom Devas are just in another category altogether.

 

[Roger Morris]

Zaxcom represents the brilliant thinking of one man, and it's thinking that revolutionized the entire movie industry when he first released his recorder.

Zaxcom was #1, before Zaxcom there was no stand alone digital recorder designed exclusively for film making........nada, nothing, nowhere.

Sound Devices, Tascam, Fostex, HHB, etc are all johnny come lately........Zaxcom made the mold that they are all fitting into.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Zaxcom represents the brilliant thinking of one man, and it's thinking that revolutionized the entire movie industry when he first released his recorder.

Zaxcom was #1, before Zaxcom there was no stand alone digital recorder designed exclusively for film making........nada, nothing, nowhere.

Sound Devices, Tascam, Fostex, HHB, etc are all johnny come lately........Zaxcom made the mold that they are all fitting into.

True, but that doesn't make the other recorders any less viable as options. As with everything in this business, pick the tool that gets the job done well, but within budget. Zaxcom is quite popular on features. Sound Devices tends to find its way into indie features (and major features as well), and broadcast/commercial/corporate projects. If Zaxcom is the Rolls Royce, Sound Devices is the Mercedes/BMW.

 

[Roger Morris]

My comments were general Steve, and intended only to be informative.
Zaxcom was first to the table with a digital recorder expressly designed for fimlmakers.

Personally, I've got a SD 442 and an SD 702T!

 

[Steve Sherrick]

My comments were general Steve, and intended only to be informative.
Zaxcom was first to the table with a digital recorder expressly designed for fimlmakers.

Personally, I've got a SD 442 and an SD 702T!

I know and I agree with all of your comments. :thumbsup:

 

[Karl Lohninger]

Zaxcom folks were the first one putting well known technology into a battery powered portable package. That's 'evolutionary', not 'revolutionary'.
'Production sound' recorded with either a Deva, SD, Nagra, Cantar whatever sounds all the same. That's total BS to say differently.
Differences can be found in user interfaces, alright.