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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Sound Devices PIX 240 ProRes/DNxHD Video Recorder with EPIC

Sam Edwards said:
For TV jobs it would be great to be able to take advantage of the full sensor on the scarlet.
When the scarlet is shooting @ 5k @ 12fps you only get 12fps from the SDI? Im not clear where in the signal path the limitation is imposed.
TIA
Sam
Click to expand...


there's your framerate, and than there's your timebase. if your timebase is set at 24 fps, and framerate at 12 fps. than you're recording 12 fps, and playing back at 24 fps, so everything will look very fast. straight out of the sdi it should just be what your timebase is, so out of the sdi should be 24 fps. thus you can get the full FOV out of the sdi at 24 fps, and a 1080 recorder should be able to capture that just fine.
 
Tom.Wong said:
there's your framerate, and than there's your timebase. if your timebase is set at 24 fps, and framerate at 12 fps. than you're recording 12 fps, and playing back at 24 fps, so everything will look very fast. straight out of the sdi it should just be what your timebase is, so out of the sdi should be 24 fps. thus you can get the full FOV out of the sdi at 24 fps, and a 1080 recorder should be able to capture that just fine.
Click to expand...


Hmmmmmmm..... VERY interesting. Curious to know if this really is possible!
 
Stuart English said:
What record format do you have selected on the camera - 4K HD or other ?
Click to expand...

Hi Stu-
I have "no" format selected since I am RED-less (awaiting Scarlet). The comments I present are parroted from other PIX/EPIC users and discussions with SoundDevices. I have heard 4KHD most closely suits the PIX full-frame recording, but, again, everyone is deferring to you (RED) for a full-frame solution. If I may ask, does your question hint at a particularly favorable setting within EPIC/Scarlet from RED's perspective??
Can you at least confirm there IS a solution and you are going to solve this?

Thanks
Stu Aull
Alaska
 
Greg M said:
There is nothing wrong with 5K, the letterbox is normal.
5KFF is not 16:9 so it will never be full frame 1080P...what you want is a 5KHD format to fill the frame.

All the 4K formats are not full raster...once this is fixed 4KHD will do the trick as well...the other 4K formats will be letter boxed as they should.

The only issue here is:
1- 4K is not FULL RASTER- this needs to be fixed by Red
2- We also need a 5K 16:9 format, which is not currently available
Click to expand...

+1 again.
 
If this black bar thing @ HD4K is true (my PIX is coming next week), only RED can fix it.

It would be complete nonsense to scale down the frame in camera to anything less than 1080 and upscale again in the PIX.
 
FYI, for anyone who is LA based, we are taking PIX on the road for a seminar at the LA Film School, Saturday, Feb 4th.

Details and RSVP here:

http://www.sounddevices.com/pix-la/
 
Matt - swing thru Fairbanks!
It will just be me. We'll do lunch....
:D

Stu Aull
Alaska
 
So I tested it with a Ki Pro Mini, and there are black borders @ HD4K coming from the Scarlet-X. RED team, please fix it!
 
Tom.Wong said:
there's your framerate, and than there's your timebase. if your timebase is set at 24 fps, and framerate at 12 fps. than you're recording 12 fps, and playing back at 24 fps, so everything will look very fast. straight out of the sdi it should just be what your timebase is, so out of the sdi should be 24 fps. thus you can get the full FOV out of the sdi at 24 fps, and a 1080 recorder should be able to capture that just fine.
Click to expand...
Hi Tom
Thanks for the reply. I hope you're right.
Cheers,
Sam
 
Red Team has posted that they are working on a clean full raster 1080 out from 4KHD. It is hoped that eventually they will offer a 5K 16:9 setting with clean output at 1080 but that is likely a more computationally heavy task that may or may not be within the capabilities of the boards in the Epic, even a bigger challenge for Scarlet.

FWIW I see 3 primary modalities that make sense for working with Epic/Scarlet and the PIX 240.
1) Shoot to the RAW and transcode to offline media, conform from EDL(or ALE) and grade final from r3ds. PIX media as fail safe, dailies (and if desired hero audio) only.
2) Shoot to PIX240 and use generated media for offline and dailies, conform from EDL(or ALE) and grade final from r3ds (my preference)
3) Shoot to PIX240 and finish from that as hero media. If time/cost trumps quality then you'll have to live with bit depth and scaling issues compromises.

Option 3 will be better when a full raster SDI output is available. Very hopeful that continuing improvements in RedCineX Pro and camera firmware will make it possible to push more precise looks back into the camera to allow the camera's SDI spigot to spit out something akin to a "one light". This would require some pre-shoot testing to create a LUT, or at the least some educated choices. The closer you can land the lower bit depth media created on the PIX 240 to the desired look, the more likely it is that you can grade it to taste without the image falling apart.

I know there are a lot of projects that simply will not go down a RAW "virtual darkroom" pathway, they are good candidates for option 3. FWIW I think the PIX 240 offers a very compelling hybrid route (option 2) where you get the advantage of instantly editable & viewable media to begin post but still grade the final piece from the R3Ds. It also has a big upside for sync sound material as the Sound Devices audio quality is substantially better than the "straight to the brain" audio on the Epic. To me, flexible input level/impedence, low noise single system (on camera) audio awaits the Pro I/O module.

FWIW if time and budget permit, option 1 is still the gold standard as you can get a more accurate rendition of the desired look into the editorial pipeline, offline is generated directly from DCN (digital camera negative) so the potential for errors in matchback is as low as anything that humans touch can be. I also feel like using the PIX 240 like a 7 series Sound Devices rig with the extra bonus of having a ready to view image and an emergency back up is a heck of a deal. YMMV.

Cheers - #19
 
agreed. nicely laid out. I consider that with the deep audio background of SD, the PIX audio will be a real asset with our cameras, regardless of how one choses to use the video...
Stu Aull
Alaska
 
On the Red One, both the SDI and HDMI outputs suffer from aliasing and in no way look as good as properly scaling down from 4k in software or via Red Rocket, even if you were for some reason scale down to 720P in post, it would still look better than the direct camera output, designed mainly for just framing and reading scopes and so on, not mastering quality direct output. I've only looked at Epic SDI direct output on tiny and/or crappy monitors, so I can't say for sure, but isn't this still an issue?
 
It's far better. BTW, I'll be soon testing the PIX for it's audio qualities with one of the best audio engineers in Germany and of course report back here.
 
Yes the Scarlet/Epic output is exceptional. I have the 240 on my Scarlet and it is great. Starts and stops with the camera, matching timecode, matches the r3d file names. Kudos to Red and SD on working together to make this happen.

As soon as a full raster solution can happen it will be perfect.
 
Sam Edwards said:
Hey Matt,
Are you demoing with a Red camera?
thanks!
Sam
Click to expand...

We are planning on having a Red camera of some type. Not sure which model yet.

If we were going to demonstrate something, what would you like to see?
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
Red Team has posted that they are working on a clean full raster 1080 out from 4KHD. It is hoped that eventually they will offer a 5K 16:9 setting with clean output at 1080 but that is likely a more computationally heavy task that may or may not be within the capabilities of the boards in the Epic, even a bigger challenge for Scarlet.

FWIW I see 3 primary modalities that make sense for working with Epic/Scarlet and the PIX 240.
1) Shoot to the RAW and transcode to offline media, conform from EDL(or ALE) and grade final from r3ds. PIX media as fail safe, dailies (and if desired hero audio) only.
2) Shoot to PIX240 and use generated media for offline and dailies, conform from EDL(or ALE) and grade final from r3ds (my preference)
3) Shoot to PIX240 and finish from that as hero media. If time/cost trumps quality then you'll have to live with bit depth and scaling issues compromises.

Option 3 will be better when a full raster SDI output is available. Very hopeful that continuing improvements in RedCineX Pro and camera firmware will make it possible to push more precise looks back into the camera to allow the camera's SDI spigot to spit out something akin to a "one light". This would require some pre-shoot testing to create a LUT, or at the least some educated choices. The closer you can land the lower bit depth media created on the PIX 240 to the desired look, the more likely it is that you can grade it to taste without the image falling apart.

I know there are a lot of projects that simply will not go down a RAW "virtual darkroom" pathway, they are good candidates for option 3. FWIW I think the PIX 240 offers a very compelling hybrid route (option 2) where you get the advantage of instantly editable & viewable media to begin post but still grade the final piece from the R3Ds. It also has a big upside for sync sound material as the Sound Devices audio quality is substantially better than the "straight to the brain" audio on the Epic. To me, flexible input level/impedence, low noise single system (on camera) audio awaits the Pro I/O module.

FWIW if time and budget permit, option 1 is still the gold standard as you can get a more accurate rendition of the desired look into the editorial pipeline, offline is generated directly from DCN (digital camera negative) so the potential for errors in matchback is as low as anything that humans touch can be. I also feel like using the PIX 240 like a 7 series Sound Devices rig with the extra bonus of having a ready to view image and an emergency back up is a heck of a deal. YMMV.

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...

We never transcode except at the very end, or for VFX. We simply edit in PPro (using RAW directly) and export finished cut to Resolve via XML, where we grade same RAW clips directly. So that would be "4" It works flawlessly even on ridiculously tight deadlines.
 
Why would Red only have 4kHD at full clean raster out of SDI on the EPIC when that would put in on par with Scarlet in a 24fps production?

The whole point of EPIC is having 5k which makes for better images.
 
If your editorial environment supports native R3D media that's even better, my list was meant to encompass those don't as well. I would also point out that the PIX can playout into a wide variety of infrastructures that support SDI without having to utilize PPro or even a computer - a real benefit in the field.

Be aware that using the monitor output to feed live scopes/waveform monitors should be approached with caution. The RAW path and the monitor output path are not the same animal. In most situations analyzing the monitor output as a guide will get you close enough to understanding what is in the RAW data set to keep you on track. That said, even with the better quality SDI out of the Epic you are seeing only a subset.

I share Rory's love for a 5K DCN, but for a 1080 finish, IMHO, 4KHD is enough oversampling that traditional production values like lighting, color, optics, etc will have more impact on final quality. On a related note, it has been my experience that the bit depth advantage of the 16 bit Epic files vs 12 bit RedOne files is actually a more critical metric for IQ.

I also share Rory's desire for clean full raster output of all the camera formats (including letterbox padding as needed) to feed out over SDI. My post simply suggested that 4KHD might be the easiest one to implement first since, in theory, it would require the least processing muscle.

In any case, I think the PIX 240 is a terrific piece of gear with excellent bang for the buck that can provide valuable options for a wide variety of projects and genres. YMMV.

Cheers - #19
 
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