Sound Devices for Epic

[Joshua Hoareau]

Hi everyone. I just bought myself an Epic and want to upgrade my sound gear at the same time. I've been working with a RODE NTG-3 and ZOOM H4N. I am happy with the mic, but want to upgrade from my ZOOM, but also don't want to have to manually sync audio with plural eyes anymore. I read up on lockit boxes. I am new to sound. Can anyone explain to me what I need to sync audio with my epic and what items I may need/recommended.

Thanks.

 

[Christopher Mills]

Best practice in synching time code to an Epic (or any other camera in use today..Alexa, F65,F3, etc) is to have a source, usually a denecke or ambient box, hardwired to the camera while shooting, continuously feeding timecode in to the camera. this box will have been jammed from another stable master source at least at the beginning of the day, if not once again at mid day.
the master source will be feeding the audio recorder all day long.

The next step up in recorder from a zoom is going to be a steep increase in price, but will offer you much more value, as it will have a stable time code clock built in.

these will be Sound Devices 702T, 744T or 664 ... or Zaxcom Nomad lite, Nomad, and fusion recorders.

I have not tested a Sound devices PIX as a master clock, but if it has a full smpte clock, it would be an option for master source for your projects.

Horita's boxes are not as well thought of, but are very cheap.
they are not approved by the main tv series studios as a master clock.

TC Buddy is a system that is approved for a clock only application. you could use it and record an audio track as your timecode on your recording setup. (kills that track for sound, though).

to probably miss quote Marc W...
"timecode is the track that the engine of production runs upon. You can make the train run on concrete, but you'll have to push a lot harder, and it will cost a lot more"

I have to confess that I still do projects without TC on my audio from time to time, but it is the exception, not the rule.

 

[Joshua Hoareau]

Thanks for the response. How does it actually work though? Like what do I actually need to do with the gear and how does it all sync up in post?

 

[Christopher Mills]

In the Field:
Set your master clock, either through the device menu with a jumpstart ap on an i device cabled into that clock.
Jam your recorder to this source, if the recorder internal clock is not the recorder.

Plug in your timecode box, and jam it to your master device. (if that master clock is built into your recorder, jam the timecode box to that)

Mount that timecode box to your camera, cabled in, and set your camera to continuous jam.
Jam your slate to your master clock
Make certain that slates are readable, and I suggest an audible read of the slate data other than timecode be read aloud at each take, when both sound and camera are running.
4-6 hours later, rejam the box to the master clock, reattach it to the camera.
rejam the slate as well.

In post:
your audio track metadata and your camera picture metadata will include matching time code tracks
The commands you use to auto sync will vary from NLE to NLE.
Now, if you seem to have drift on the clocks, you will still have the visible sticks and the audible scene/take info to manually adjust start point.

 

[Craig Weeding]

Another bit of gear you should look at is an Ipad app called MovieSlate from Pureblend software. http://www.movie-slate.com they have the $50 option of allowing the slate to be synced to external TC, to do this we use a cable from ikmultimedia called the IRig takes the time code and pads it down to mic level and connects to the ipad through the headphone/microphone jack

if you already have an Ipad it turns it in to a time code slate for around $100

Good Luick

I use sound deices gear all the time and am very happy with the 702T, 744T , 788T and the 664 the 664 is the lasest unit that is both a mixer and a recorder in one very nice bit of kit.



They

 

[Christopher Mills]

Craig,
This would still require a very stable tc master clock as source for ipad.. in my experience you should rejam ipadslate every 90 minutes or so..

 

[Steve Das]

I use sound deices gear all the time and am very happy with the 702T, 744T , 788T and the 664 the 664 is the lasest unit that is both a mixer and a recorder in one very nice bit of kit.

Are there any other mixer integrated sound recorders..?
Anyone worked with a Sound Devices 664 before ?
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...ices_664_Six_Channel_Portable_Production.html

 

[Christopher Mills]

yes Zaxcom nomad, nomad lite, and fusion. all excellent.

Sound Devices 664 is very recent, but a local project just spent a month using 4 of them with zero problems and excellent results.. as this was an indoor/outdoor reality show in rain, snow, cold and humid heat, it was a torture test.. they passed.

all above have stable tc clocks

 

[Steve Das]

...all above have stable tc clocks

Thanks Christopher....yes..totally forgot about Zaxcom.

Have read about certain recorders not having stable tc clocks and always wondered how
a company can ever sell a timecode recorder that doesn't have stable timecode ?
And are people actually getting stable timecode with http://www.movie-slate.com
and an Ipad ?

 

[Christopher Mills]

You get short term useable timecode from movie slate app.. where a dedicated hardware clock will be stable all day, 90 minutes is about the limit on the app/Ipad or Iphone combo.
So.. rejam often, and you'll be ok.. if you are your own client.
This setup wont fly with A&E, Nat Geo, Sony Etc as your post production dept..

 

[Craig Weeding]

Craig,
This would still require a very stable tc master clock as source for ipad.. in my experience you should rejam ipadslate every 90 minutes or so..

I agree, for this purpose we use lockit boxes on each camera and the sound devices recorder, before shooting we use the clockit box to fine tune the the lock on the clocket boxes.

 

[Christopher Mills]

would say that you will get by fine not continuously jamming the sound devices recorder.. just use it to teach your lockit boxes and real slate the time when you start day and have lunch break.

 

[Joshua Hoareau]

Thanks heaps for all the info Any particular set-up you could recommend for me to buy?

 

[Christopher Mills]

Test out both SD and Zax recorders. and see which you like..
I suggest you get one Denecke SB-3 or SB-t synchbox per camera body.
and a Denecke TS-3 Slate... make sure you get cables to jam your boxes and to feed the camera.. velcro is good for attaching them to camera.
SO.. for production with one camera..
At least an SD 702t (two tracks only) or Zaxcom Nomad Lite for a recorder
One Timecode slate
One Syncbox
one jam cable with tips for slate and syncbox
one syncbox to camera cable.
for this use, rechargeable batteries are fine, just keep track of how long they are lasting.

Before anyone gripes.. if you lived in Europe, I would have suggested Ambient slate and syncbox, and possibly a Sonosax recorder. these are all very nicely made devices.
I have not checked to see if anyone in OZ makes slates or TC syncboxes.
Its a big enough market, someone should consider it.

Other option for syncboxes is the Timecode Buddy system.. you need a pair of them, though.. they are transceivers.

 

[Steve Das]

Not a sound guy myself..but have been looking into new Zaxcom Maxx Mixer/Recorder.
http://www.zaxcom.com/maxx
__________________________

Maybe some sound guys could elaborate on how it compares to the other
Zaxcom and Sound Devices options.

Here is Zaxcom owner describing it
http://jwsoundgroup.net/index.php?/topic/13060-zaxcom-maxx/?p=140039

Lets be very clear on this. Maxx is not a Nomad.
It has a very specific different feature set from Nomad.

It is however a direct replacement for a small 2 to 4 (or even 5) channel eng mixers, 2 wireless transmitters, 2/6 track recorder, time code reader/generator and time code slate. If you own a 4 or even 5 channel bag mixer for work with a camera this product will serve you very well. If you are mixing multitrack audio for scripted or unscripted television or cinema, Nomad is the way to go. Unlike the Nomad the Maxx does not incorperate Zaxnet. This is a distinct and defining difference....

___________

http://www.trewaudio.com/store/Zaxcom-Maxx-Mixer-Recorder.html
$2395 for base model to $3999 with all options

 

[Brad B.]

thanks for posting this data.. coming in handy as i put my wish list together for epic

 

[Christopher Mills]

biggest difference, is that the Maxx is intended to provide a two track mixed audio recording, rather than a multi isolated tracks audio recording plus stereo mix.

more like a sound devices 552 in utility.
Better for news and doc than drama, in my opinion

If you want something flexible enough to do isos and a mix, then the Zaxcom Nomad and Sound Devices 664 are mixer/recorder combos with tc clocks and the ability to record tracks in isolation and mix track.

I have used my Zaxcom Fusion to work with R1 and Epic kits, jamming timecode via a cable on every camera repower, and had great results.
I only wish that the recorder weighted less. (and, as the core of my cart, it was a nearly $9K recorder, with all the options I ordered)
If you add a pair of wireless receivers, you could put your ref track onto your camera..
BUT,, you'll still need a method of continuously feeding timecode.

 

[Arnold F.]

I have a Sound Devices 788T? What is the right camera to get for that?

 

[Joshua Hoareau]

Thanks heaps Chris I'll be testing these out soon!

 

[Brian Anderson]

Test out both SD and Zax recorders. and see which you like..
I suggest you get one Denecke SB-3 or SB-t synchbox per camera body.
and a Denecke TS-3 Slate... make sure you get cables to jam your boxes and to feed the camera.. velcro is good for attaching them to camera.
SO.. for production with one camera..
At least an SD 702t (two tracks only) or Zaxcom Nomad Lite for a recorder
One Timecode slate
One Syncbox
one jam cable with tips for slate and syncbox
one syncbox to camera cable.
for this use, rechargeable batteries are fine, just keep track of how long they are lasting.

Before anyone gripes.. if you lived in Europe, I would have suggested Ambient slate and syncbox, and possibly a Sonosax recorder. these are all very nicely made devices.
I have not checked to see if anyone in OZ makes slates or TC syncboxes.
Its a big enough market, someone should consider it.

Other option for syncboxes is the Timecode Buddy system.. you need a pair of them, though.. they are transceivers.

If you went with a denecke system and didn't want a slate, would you need a pair of Syncboxs (SB-3) for the system to work with the SD 702T?