Sony's BIG Announcement

[David Rasberry]

The dedicated ENG camera is a highly evolved form factor. Even with a reasonable balanced off the shoulder shooting configuration, Scarlet would have a very hard time matching the efficiency and convenient control layout of a Sony. EFP production for commercials and programs Scarlet could work very well.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Curios about the 3k FCS workflow...

 

[hdcrew]

Why would the Scarlet need auto focus and auto iris to compete in the broadcast market, are broadcast camera operators really using these functions?

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

Why would the Scarlet need auto focus and auto iris to compete in the broadcast market, are broadcast camera operators really using these functions?

Because news crews don't have focus pullers.

 

[Frank Weeks]

Because news crews don't have focus pullers.

I have shot news and eng work for many years, I have never had auto focus.
Now auto iris is another story.

 

[M Most]

The dedicated ENG camera is a highly evolved form factor. Even with a reasonable balanced off the shoulder shooting configuration, Scarlet would have a very hard time matching the efficiency and convenient control layout of a Sony. EFP production for commercials and programs Scarlet could work very well.

What David said. Also:

RAW is not an attraction for broadcast, it is a hindrance. Broadcast is all about speed and efficiency, and that means recording directly in a standard broadcast format, seeing the final image that you're recording, and having that available both for playback immediately after recording, and live when needed. It also means things like lens mounted servo controlled zoom, auto iris, zebras, and a number of other things. I suppose that in some hands, with some kind of configuration, Scarlet might be able to accomplish some of that. But it's not likely to be the right tool for the job.

 

[Stefan Christou]

Are we saying we don't expect the Scarlet 2/3" camera to compete in the broadcast market? Personally, I think if it does most of what has been claimed, offers both RAW and 1080RGB, has great autofocus, auto Iris, and audio section, as well as a solid workflow built into NLEs, then it should clearly compete in the broadcast realm.

Agreed. Let's remember that a according to Nyquist theorem a 1080 line sensor is only good for 540p broadcast! So you will be getting either majour softness or major aliasing at 1080 with Sony's offering.

If Scarlet records 1080 RGB downscalled from 3k in camera (rather than line skipped) AND Red take up the option of creating an AMA plug-in for Avid then I can see Scarlet being a huge hit in the ENG world.

My 2¢

 

[Eki Halkka]

Agreed. Let's remember that a according to Nyquist theorem a 1080 line sensor is only good for 540p broadcast!

Nope - the Nyquist applies to the broadcast master too, not just the sensor. 540p broadcast can only resolve something well under 270 line pairs, 1080 sensor can produce something closer to 540 line pairs. 1080 sensor will not give an optimally sharp 1080 image due to optical low pass filtering, which needs to be somewhat stronger than digital filtering used when downscaling from higher resolution - but the Nyquist limit is the same for both.

 

[David Birdy]

My 2 cents... RED has introduced "disruptive technology" or A "revolution" as many would say... we love our RED camera and have enjoyed watching it take shape and become a staple in the industry!

Sony makes one of the "Best" Live "Triaxed" base station cameras on the market today in the Sony 1500 series...If you watch A level Fox football, Sunday Night Football, the U2 3D movie or a host of other live HD events more than likely it has been from the sensor of a Sony 1500/1000 series camera.

I use the best tool for the job and Hope RED will introduce "Live" features to the camera line up!

Dave

 

[M Most]

Sony makes one of the "Best" Live "Triaxed" base station cameras on the market today in the Sony 1500 series...If you watch A level Fox football, Sunday Night Football, the U2 3D movie or a host of other live HD events more than likely it has been from the sensor of a Sony 1500/1000 series camera.

Not "sensor." Sensors. All Sony broadcast cameras have 3 chips. The reduced resolution assumptions being made here by those who are used to Bayer reconstruction do not apply. It's also one of the things that makes broadcast cameras appropriate for broadcast.

 

[Stuart English]

Broadcast

Broadcast

All Sony broadcast cameras have 3 chips. It's also one of the things that makes broadcast cameras appropriate for broadcast.

As broadcast cameras evolved from 3 pick up tubes to 3 CCDs, the rear elements of a broadcast lens are designed for that.

But there is no reason why a 1-chip camera can't be applied to broadcast, other than that existing lens compatibility issue.

 

[David Rasberry]

Not "sensor." Sensors. All Sony broadcast cameras have 3 chips. The reduced resolution assumptions being made here by those who are used to Bayer reconstruction do not apply. It's also one of the things that makes broadcast cameras appropriate for broadcast.

The Nyquist resolution limits for 1080p 3-chip broadcast cameras fall around 750-800 lines. In most cases 1080i broadcast maxes out around 600 lines.

 

[M Most]

As broadcast cameras evolved from 3 pick up tubes to 3 CCDs, the rear elements of a broadcast lens are designed for that.

But there is no reason why a 1-chip camera can't be applied to broadcast, other than that existing lens compatibility issue.

If the one chip is a Bayer chip, the reason would also be the need for real time demosaic, reformatting, and scaling of the output at the best quality with almost no latency. While this is possible (it's basically what the Red Rocket card does, and it's also what the Arri D21 does, although I have no idea about the latency) it adds a good deal of additional in camera processing needs vs. a three chip approach.

 

[Eddy Robinson]

If Scarlet records 1080 RGB downscalled from 3k in camera (rather than line skipped) AND Red take up the option of creating an AMA plug-in for Avid then I can see Scarlet being a huge hit in the ENG world.

I don't, at least not in the short term. As others have pointed out, ENG and most TV work is about speed and ergonomics. Image quality is distinctly secondary - most of this footage, is disposable by nature of its subject matter.

The big (long-term) money in TV comes from syndication. So if you're shooting the next Friends or Seinfeld or Lost, then Scarlet and its stablemates are strong contenders, because you hope your show will be interesting enough to sell for re-broadcast many times over, on blu-ray etc. etc.

On the other hand, if you're shooting news, reality shows, Food network, lifestyle...those shows are only intended to last for a single season: the goal is to produce as cheaply and automatically as possible, promote the hell out of it, and sell for another season. The camera work is simple, lighting is minimally important, the editing is basic, it's all about creating a sense of immediate drama. The production approach is to buy a bunch of expensive gear that's easy to operate consistently and throw a big team at it so you can crank out as much content as possible as fast as possible.

If Scarlet dropped tomorrow with workflow-in-a-box and so on, sure, it would get used by a few people, but the decision would be made on price and whether it speeds up the shoot. In the short term, it would actually be bad for RED because the production approach would still be about shooting as much and as fast as possible, and the resulting footage is still going to look ugly in terms of composition, lighting etc...it'll still be video, just ultra-sharp video - undermining RED's 'digital cinema' brand.

If it's too sharp and the 'talent' doesn't look good on screen, then it's actually a disadvantage for the producers and they'll either have to spend more time on makeup or more likely tell the camera people to put on a diffusing filter and shut up. They already use diffusing filters on some HD programs to cater to people's vanity; CNN shoots Lou Dobbs through a thick layer of vaseline and the same was true of a recent reality show with Rupaul.

There's no real reason for RED to push Scarlet into that particular market in the short term, any more than there is a reason for Ferrari to compete in the market for garbage trucks.

 

[David Rasberry]

If the one chip is a Bayer chip, the reason would also be the need for real time demosaic, reformatting, and scaling of the output at the best quality with almost no latency. While this is possible (it's basically what the RED Rocket™™ card does, and it's also what the Arri D21 does, although I have no idea about the latency) it adds a good deal of additional in camera processing needs vs. a three chip approach.

The sub 2k 1080p handicams from Canon, Sony, et al do this quite well, so it is no big deal if the processor is designed for that to begin with. It is the quality and data rates of the output codec that dictate processor power and speed. The 3 chip cams still have to interpolate the RGB raw sensor data into a single encoded output format too.

 

[M Most]

The sub 2k 1080p handicams from Canon, Sony, et al do this quite well, so it is no big deal if the processor is designed for that to begin with.

With the copious amount of aliasing and other issues in those cameras, I wouldn't say they do this "quite well." They do it to a level that's acceptable for consumers, not at a level acceptable by professionals, at least not the ones I think we're talking about.

It is the quality and data rates of the output codec that dictate processor power and speed. The 3 chip cams still have to interpolate the RGB raw sensor data into a single encoded output format too.

There's no complex math and no interpolation needed for that type of operation (I'm talking about formatting for SDI here), as there is for a properly done demosaic. And for any compression operation, that's likely done on one or two chips. I get your point, but we're going to have to agree to disagree on our conclusions.

 

[David Rasberry]

With the copious amount of aliasing and other issues in those cameras, I wouldn't say they do this "quite well." They do it to a level that's acceptable for consumers, not at a level acceptable by professionals, at least not the ones I think we're talking about.

Agreed, didn't mean to imply that they were.

There's no complex math and no interpolation needed for that type of operation (I'm talking about formatting for SDI here), as there is for a properly done demosaic. And for any compression operation, that's likely done on one or two chips. I get your point, but we're going to have to agree to disagree on our conclusions

Interpolation and sub sampling are routine in 3 chip cameras as the YPbPr channels of the encoded component output each contain defined levels of values from all three sensors.

 

[M Most]

Interpolation and sub sampling are routine in 3 chip cameras as the YPbPr channels of the encoded component output each contain defined levels of values from all three sensors.

C'mon, David, you know what I mean. The simple matrix math type operations required for that are nowhere near the complexity of a high quality, complex demosaic operation. And they don't take nearly the same amount of processing time to complete. The amount of time and complexity involved in doing a full demosaic is the reason why the Red One doesn't do it for its live output. In fact, the only camera I can think of that does this at the level expected by professionals is the Arri D21, which was designed specifically for that approach.

 

[David Rasberry]

C'mon, David, you know what I mean. The simple matrix math type operations required for that are nowhere near the complexity of a high quality, complex demosaic operation. And they don't take nearly the same amount of processing time to complete. The amount of time and complexity involved in doing a full demosaic is the reason why the Red One doesn't do it for its live output. In fact, the only camera I can think of that does this at the level expected by professionals is the Arri D21, which was designed specifically for that approach.

True. A good indicator of the needed processing power for full quality deBayer/scale/encode is the difference in the specified frame rates for Redcode raw vs FF1080p encoded output from the new Scarlet/Epics.

 

[Stuart English]

Broadcast

Broadcast

Broadcast is a broad outlet, and RED cameras are already participating by producing commercials, TV shows, documentaries.

As others have pointed out, ENG and most TV work is about speed and ergonomics.
Image quality is distinctly secondary - most of this footage, is disposable by nature of its subject matter.

That's true of news ... hence Electronic News Gathering... but most network schedules (still) include a lot more scripted or documentary programming than news. As for cable, low production cost and small crew size are perhaps more important issues.

If it's too sharp and the 'talent' doesn't look good on screen, then it's actually a disadvantage for the producers and they'll either have to spend more time on makeup or more likely tell the camera people to put on a diffusing filter and shut up.

Extra resolution = hyper sharpness is common misconception brought about by 1080i HD television cameras.
If resolution was really a problem we'd see less interest in 4K images on the cinema screen.