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Sony F3, Red contender?

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Patrick Tresch said:
Who spoke RED in the same sentence?

PS: I'm happy Sony has joined the "S35mm market" with an "affordable" camera
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No no.. Sorry, poorly written... I meant to say that Panasonic has the sensability to know their camera does not come within a million miles of RED (I bet you Sony actually tries to use their new camera to compete with Epic... Sad). Instead their target is the DSLR crowd, and I think that's a reasonable target for Panasonic. Good on them.

I'm a RED Fanboy, when I am serious about shooting, I shoot RED/Epic.. However there are other cameras on the market, and I think that's a good thing. Panasonic caught my attention years ago with the SDX900.. While not as groundbreaking as RED may have been it will still a very neat camera with a lot of cool features when it came out.

To each his own.

Jay
 
People seem to forget that there is a line of 5 to 7 thousand RED1 owners that are ahead of any new purchaser of an Epic. If previous estimates of 700 per month production are correct (don't recall where that came from exactly so any update is appreciated) and even if RED starts to ship in quantity by the F3 launch in Feb 2011, that's a ten month window before any newcomer can buy an EpicS35 currently priced over $30K with the modules needed, vs. $16K for the Sony body. And about $43K for the RED with the 35, 50, 85 red primes vs. $23K for the sony package.

I think sub-$20K is a very powerful price point (part of the reason I ordered an R1) so I doubt if this will be "DOA".

Everybody knew this was coming (there are more rumors about a similar Canon on canonrumors.com today as well) - doesn't change the fact that Epic seems to be an awesome camera, with a number of futureproofing features - so nothing to panic about. Just means there is going to be lots of competition and lots of choices in the large sensor motion picture camera market in the coming years.
 
JPSendall said:
The thing missing for me is the lack of other mounts, Canon and Nikon obviously.
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Doesn't seem to be anything particularly difficult about making other mounts work on that F3. Without a prism to worry about, it's probably a fairly straightforward mechanical situation.
 
Keep in mind that only serious competitor to Epic and Scarlet S35 is Aaton Penelope ∆ 4K uncompressed.

All other cameras are basically HD included GH2 as a latest comer.

My predictions about the race winners are:

1. Scarlet S35 will be the absolute winner.

2. Epic as a second.

3. Panasonic GH2 as a biggest surprise of the season race.

Btw, that will show that most popular digital cina cameras of tomorrow are not "bulky boxes" anymore.
 
We are not talking competition to RED cameras but other options that will be soon available.

RED/Aaton/Arri/... are clearly in another league the the new Sony/Panasonnic handycams.

Pat
 
Manuel Wenger said:
Mpeg 2 long GOP Recording with 35Mbit and max. 60 fps at 1280x720 is nothing RED has to worry about. Looks for me like the functionality of an EX1 with a bigger sensor and PL mount for 10.000 USD more than EX1

Manuel
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Not far off. I'm pretty tired of Long GOP. I'd really like to see more intra-frame recording. Why hasn't AVC-Intra taken off? Best one can generally hope for is 160Mbps I-frame only from the Nanoflash. Why aren't there better options?
 
Michael Hastings said:
People seem to forget that there is a line of 5 to 7 thousand RED1 owners that are ahead of any new purchaser of an Epic. If previous estimates of 700 per month production are correct (don't recall where that came from exactly so any update is appreciated) and even if RED starts to ship in quantity by the F3 launch in Feb 2011, that's a ten month window before any newcomer can buy an EpicS35 currently priced over $30K with the modules needed, vs. $16K for the Sony body. And about $43K for the RED with the 35, 50, 85 red primes vs. $23K for the sony package.

I think sub-$20K is a very powerful price point (part of the reason I ordered an R1) so I doubt if this will be "DOA".

Everybody knew this was coming (there are more rumors about a similar Canon on canonrumors.com today as well) - doesn't change the fact that Epic seems to be an awesome camera, with a number of futureproofing features - so nothing to panic about. Just means there is going to be lots of competition and lots of choices in the large sensor motion picture camera market in the coming years.
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agreed...I really think the Sony F3 camera is going to appeal to the folks currently waiting for the s35 Scarlet...my guess is the s35 scarlet is really a late 2011 release at best!
 
Michael Hastings said:
If previous estimates of 700 per month production are correct (don't recall where that came from exactly so any update is appreciated) and even if RED starts to ship in quantity by the F3 launch in Feb 2011, that's a ten month window before any newcomer can buy an EpicS35 currently priced over $30K with the modules needed, vs. $16K for the Sony body.
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A. I'd check your source on that 700 per month number.

B. There will be a few interesting developments between NOW and Feb. 2011

C. If you think this camera is a good value ... buy it.

More choices is a positive thing. I just don't think this is a good one.
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
A. I'd check your source on that 700 per month number.

B. There will be a few interesting developments between NOW and Feb. 2011

C. If you think this camera is a good value ... buy it.

More choices is a positive thing. I just don't think this is a good one.
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A: So what's the number - more or less?

B: I'm sure there will be some interesting developments between NOW and Feb 2011. Are you referring to something that people will be able to buy from RED immediately? RED 1 and a half? If so, that's fine - I'm supportive of RED doing things that make sense to keep it a viable player as that benefits ALL RED owners, past and future - but I do think they have a certain amount of obligation to those like myself with large deposits already paid to expedite delivery of Stage 2 Epic-X as much as possible.

C: As I said, I already have my deposit on Epic-X - my camera of choice - just pointing out that if comparing to Epic, there is a long waiting list.

On the other hand, a few tweaks to the RED1 package and comparable pricing would keep it very competitive with these new offerings from CanoPanaSony.

I understand that there are still advantages to the RED system, but I also think that we Redusers sometimes forget that not everyone wants to be a pioneer and to many there is value in dealing with large/long established companies. I suspect that they will sell about as many of these as Red has the R1, simply because of its handheld integration and their marketing power and presence.

Personally, I have always been willing to step off the beaten path (at one time I owned a Recam and later a D3 camcorder, and then an Ikegami Editcam - because through industry contacts I was able to purchase at about 10% of retail and it made sense to get the best quality at the time. I've also owned more mainstream cams as well). But I've also built housings for every major camera of the past 28 years, so I have been in a unique position to hear all of the reasons people have for buying various systems.
 
Besides the external recording options and probably less aliasing... how is this better than a $800 T2i? Is Sony insane? Hell, the Rebel even has fully progressive 24p, not that stupid 60i wrapper crap.

The price increase for Scarlet just looks like pennies now that we're finally seeing these POS "successors" to the DSLRs.
 
I don't think this camera will light the world on fire but it's not DOA either.

I think Sony are betting that they can sell this "lesser option" to all of the people whom RED will not be able to deliver to in time.

Also, it may be enough to stop the people stuck in conservative / unadventurous companies which aren't RED friendly from fighting with management.

Instead of "Oh damn it, I can't get anything NEAR the look of RED with this stupid F900 - and apart from RED there's nothing affordable..."

Now it's "do I recommend we buy / rent F3s and then the idiots in the post department will be happy... or do I fight for RED... and then be the one they blame and fire when they mess up their R3D workflow / can't buy red-drives / shoot with the wrong firmware?"

It's like the old "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" thing.

I think a lot of conservative people will go for that Sony instead of RED until RED has another half-decade of smooth sailing.

Also, this camera, although a specification lightweight seems to have a number of Epic / Scarlet-like (or video-camera-like) ergonomic advantages over the current Red One:
- weighs 5.3 lbs, incl viewfinder, recording medium, etc
- near-instant start up and record
- its long-form recording medium is currently available, heck they even let you plug in 3rd-party SD cards or a memory stick with an adapter
- many worldwide locations to get your camera serviced and also demo / buy the camera
- post workflow is already understood by mid-skill-level, unadventurous working broadcast folks
- built-in ND filters
- clean, high-quality HD-SDI output at 1080p
- audio system that works nicely, has XLR ports, gain pots, etc
- works with existing Sony remotes
- 3D sync where you can just hook two cameras together with a cable

Sony are obviously moving towards a cheap, high quality recording format in the future - their SR memory card system.

Plus they are also potentially beating RED to market on the electronic lens front with their F3 mount zoom.

Finally, I think that there are a lot of people who don't like the color of the RED out of the box at all. It needs skill to get the most out of it. This Sony's color might be better - and even if it isn't, the colorists will probably try harder than they do with RED since RED's brand image is not as strong yet. There is a certain pervasive RED color look that colorists seem to think is acceptable for RED shoots for some reason - they just (unfairly) blame the camera and move on.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Peter Moretti said:
:confused: Dude, are you serious?
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Yes I am serious...

At the core, what technology is in this Sony cam that warrants the $20k price tag over a $800 one.

It's not the 35mm sensor... that can be had in an $800 camera body.

It's not sensitivity... only 800 iso? 5D is fairly clean up into the 2000's.

It's not the codec... XDCAM 4:2:0 35mbs vs H.264 4:2:0 45mbs

So I am serious... Is it just because Sony labels it as "pro", puts in a big "pro-looking" shell and adds some uncompressed output (which is nice, don't get me wrong) and a few more histograms?

Hell it can't even do 60fps in 1080p! Does anyone else see anything wrong with that? That this $20k "pro" camera is only capable of the frame-rate and resolution of a $800 DSLR? Granted the Sony will probably resolve a little more detail... but doesn't anyone else see what I'm talking about?

Thank God for Epic. Sony's corporate BS of trying to protect their obsolete monstrous F35 is getting old. Canon and Red have set the tech standards IMO. 1080p 35mm video should not cost more than $3000 and 5k 120fps video should not cost more than... well, I guess Red is the only company doing it.
 
For the record ... I own a Sony EX3, and its rentals paid for my Red One.

However, putting a PL mount on any of these prosumer cameras reminds me of sticking a Porsche engine in a Karmann Ghia.

PRUEFSTAND4.jpg


They did that a lot in California until the bodies started to fall apart.

For the record, I also owned a Karmann Ghia in college. :)
 
I think Bruce Allen's post had a lot of merit. My addition:

Look, I'm an early RED owner and very excited to get my Epic, so at least for the most part i'm a red fanboy, but I think sometimes a little more realistic, so take this for what it is worth.

I downloaded the high res tiffs of the multiple views of this camera and the truth is it looks like a VERY slick camera.

RED set out to make a digital cinema camera, and as such, they have done a fine job - and they certainly turned the whole video industry on its ear. But you also have to realize that the hard core film-style shooting/double system sound market is EXTREMELY small. The vast majority of the "motion picture" i.e. Documentary/Broadcast/Corporate/Industrial/Scientific shooters just want more of the look of film, which the R1 provided but in almost every other respect the R1 (and to some extent even Epic) seemed like several steps backward.

This camera has all of the direct access functions (and the ergonomics and "fit and finish") one expects in a modern "video" camera. As great as the ability to manipulate "RAW" footage is, most of us learned how to use those functions to get a really great image out of a modern video camera like a Varicam or even lower end EX1s and the like - without a lot of post manipulation.

There's nothing wrong with onboard white balance switches, Neutral density filters, Gain controls, audio level control knobs, easy access to in camera looks, on board batteries, integrated (look ma, no wires) LCD and viewfinder, standard xlr inputs, multiple normal BNC HD and regular SDI outputs, standard HDMI, servo zoom, cheap media, etc.

Not to mention things like:

Remote control capability:
"The PMW-F3K offers professional remote control of various camera features via standard Sony 8-pin control interface. This allows use of Sony optional RM- B150 and RM-B750 remote control units offering increased flexibility for studio/location use."

So live (fully controlled remote truck style) multi-camera shoots will be possible the day the cameras arrive.

Peter Matthes said:
For the record ... I own a Sony EX3, and its rentals paid for my Red One.

However, putting a PL mount on any of these prosumer cameras reminds me of sticking a Porsche engine in a Karmann Ghia.

PRUEFSTAND4.jpg


They did that a lot in California until the bodies started to fall apart.

For the record, I also owned a Karmann Ghia in college. :)
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So you think the body will fall apart?
 
I don't see the pricepoint either; Sony may have something up their sleeve but at present the only advantage over the (much cheaper) af100+nanoflash is that it's aps-c... For a similar price why not get 4k and redraw? When you're talking 10s of thousands, $1500 difference between red1 body and the F3 body isn't that much... Or am I missing something?
 
From Sony's site:
"The SP mode supports 1440 x 1080 resolution at 25 Mb/s, which provides compatibility with HDV 1080i products."

Anyone with HDV-only editing equipment from 2003 should be overjoyed at this feature, and it's something that RED simply can't compete with.

:sarcasm:
 
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