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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Sony F23 VS Red

But the whole start of this thread is mute, even though the subject is interesting...

To compare the two, we'd need to see paralell uncorrected shots of the same subject. Blablabla... -;)

To me this looked like a well shot, well produced and very well CC'ed musicvideo from a good camera. If you definitely never ever like blown, well... That's ok with me -:)

This video doesn't really give away (in its internet compressed form - which I found rather well done, too) the cams dynamic range or general capacity - cept from making nice images.

I cannot see why this is an argument for "F23 is clipping when red isn't" at all.

But thanks for the link. It was a nice video -:)

Gunleik
 
The difference; Dof and the money.

Interesting though, Canon, Pana, and Sony are all heading toward larger sensors in a fast pace now (even if a 2/3" is not new at all).

And please stop all platform bashing! Some like RED, some like Sony, or what ever...
 
I hate it when this kind of crap starts. If the tables were turned, and Sony people were comparing top of the line F23 footage to a compressed file from RED on the internet you would all be having kittens and lighting torches right now.

Is RED better.. Of course. But to be specific RED is better FOR US. In that it's good looking, always evolving, and AFFORDABLE.

I have no doubt, BOTH make beautiful pictures. Let's try to be professional and give credit where it's due.

The best competitors respect each other, they may also want to kick each other's ass! But there's respect. Without Sony, many of us would not be here.

RED will win many races in the years ahead, let's try not to come off as arrogant jerks in the mean time.

Jay
 
Please note that its shot with wideangle lenses, thus making this whole DOF issue, with regard to this clip, nonsense.
NONE(myself included) of you would be able to tell the difference between a 6mm digiprime on F23 and a 12mm on RED, not even wide open,not in this clip.
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
I hate it when this kind of crap starts. If the tables were turned, and Sony people were comparing top of the line F23 footage to a compressed file from RED on the internet you would all be having kittens and lighting torches right now.

Is RED better.. Of course. But to be specific RED is better FOR US. In that it's good looking, always evolving, and AFFORDABLE.

I have no doubt, BOTH make beautiful pictures. Let's try to be professional and give credit where it's due.

The best competitors respect each other, they may also want to kick each other's ass! But there's respect. Without Sony, many of us would not be here.

RED will win many races in the years ahead, let's try not to come off as arrogant jerks in the mean time.

Jay
Click to expand...


I can't agree more Jay.
 
They are both tools. Compare them, but to say one is better than the other is like saying green is better than blue on a artists paint pallette. You will have a preference but that's all it is.
 
I have no knowledge regarding a comparison in dynamic range between the two cameras, but Red's ability to shoot RAW vs RGB is huge, for me.

Since I started using RAW with my timelapses, I have not shot a single JPEG. The latitude and flexibility RAW gives me is just amazing.
 
The worst thing on that clip I see is the horrible moire within all the smokes. I don't have any better explanation it's the H264 codec. But the question is. Is H264 codec really so bad that it can cause such a horror?
 
I looked at an F23 for a job a couple of months ago.. The problems where cost and size.. not absolute quality. Cost for a package with Digiprimes started at over £3200 ($6500) per day.. and it is 'big'.. Its sharp (not edgy) noiseless image is very impressive..

I will be able to put our own Red package on to my own jobs (with 2 bodies) for a third of the money.. Even if we spring for a 6 lens master prime set the cost would still be less than half the cost per day...

If your shoot is simple (low shooting ratio and short form) a 435 with Ultra primes and a Spirit TK to SR could easily be comparable...

So I feel you really need to want the F23 unique qualities to justify its cost...

Especially on my budgets..

Michael Lindsay
 
Thats it. Are there (what are) the F23 unique qualities (let's say over RED) that will justify its cost?
 
I was quoted £2500 per day back in late August for the F23 (body only)... prices do go down but I suspect not by allot... If you can find it in the UK for the pound equivalent to $1500 I would use it straight away..

The unique qualities are:

Direct SR recording...
Great clean pictures (great keying)..
Tape Slowmo..
Easy fight to achieve deep DOF..
Fast (unlike D20)

Michael (can't wait for his Reds)

Ps I may have accidentally exaggerated the 2.5k price... it might have been 2k
 
A51Films said:
A full package for Red, I would expect to go for about the same or more, to rent anyway.
Click to expand...

I don't know how you arrive at that rationale, but I just don't see how a RED package should be the same price or higher, and at the very least, I really hope it wouldn't be.
 
Brook Willard said:
The F35 is just the Genesis. That's why you can't buy it stateside... because the Genesis is here.
Click to expand...

Ahh, I figured just the sensor was the same as the one used in the Genesis. So does this mean the F35 can use the Panavision SSR-1 - Solid State Recorder?
 
Any HD camera can use the SSR-1. It uses a single 12-pin docking cable/link for onboard mounting (the F23, Genesis, F35 allow this, don't know how to put it on other cameras) -- but separately on its docking station, it has dual and single-link HD-SDI ins and outs using BNC's.

Or you can use the Venom FlashPak SSR.
 
A51Films said:
Sure, you don't get the whole thing from one source, but it's cheaper than $6500. A full package for Red, I would expect to go for about the same or more, to rent anyway.
Click to expand...

Are you high?
 
I'm jumping into this late, so I'll make a couple of comments together..

The F23 is a great camera. I've gotten hands on with it, and though it's a bit of a beast, it can produce amazing images. It blows the F900R out of the water. To get the full dynamic range out of it, you need to go into log mode and tweak, or better yet, have a DIT do it. But it can do impressive things.

As for it being 2/3" form factor, well, not my preference, but if you put the Zeiss Digiprimes up against the Master Primes, you're shooting with great glass either way, each designed to optimize the imaging format. Both produce awesome results.

The F35 is coming. It's the F23 body with a Genesis like S35 size sensor and PL mount. There may be some kind of Sony - Panavision non-compete agreement, so the F35 will not be released stateside until that expires.

Speaking of Panavision, they are now loading up with Panasonic HPX3000 cameras, another model that blows the F900R away, especially with the AVC-Intra. Panasonic did a great job with this one - the images are stunning, especially considering the form factor difference vs. the F23. And with 5 32GB P2 cards; that's a lot of runtime.

And as far as rental rates go.. let's say you're comparing the RED to the F35. The F35 body/recorder will be more expensive. But the cost for lenses, accessories, dolly, lighting, and the camera dept bodies will all be the same. Cost savings for a major production will be minimal. It will be about choosing the right tool & workflow for the job.

Of course many of us, like myself, can buy a RED to have available at all times, which is a different kind of benefit. ;)

David
 
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