Something New....

[Yaque Silva-Doyle]

Jarrad,

Very exciting stuff. Is this module and, or the SSD capable of the lossless 2.5:1 mathematically lossless compression that was mentioned earlier in the year.
Thanks.

 

[Erich Ocean]

So the new extra $1000 to get two readers is another ouch

The readers are only $250/each; you don't need to buy the $250 base station unless you want to power other readers in a "stack".

$250 for a reader doesn't seem too high, given all the problems people have been having with footage being corrupted during transfer.

 

[Pascal Scheffers]

No one is talking about value. No one is questioning quality.

We all know that specs and delivery dates are subject to change, and we count on it..
This is a two pronged event:
1: The REMOVAL of the RED Drive from the picture
2: The increase in cost to move to SSDs

Guys, we need to be able to express some thought and emotion on here without being berated, insulted, or have our various business models questioned.

+1

And still other, like me, are thinking about the lower end of the equation. RED is about cutting edge cameras, the truly high end. At the same time, they're flaunting this thing called the Scarlet 8x fixed. Their lower end, we have no idea what they're going to announce next, but I feel Scarlet needs a somewhat matched recording solution too. A $4500 camera where 128GB of storage plus tools, the only way to record continuously for more than an hour, costs another $4500 feels... odd in 2010.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of all of this stuff being modular, and one day I may be able to afford an EPIC. Just not today.

 

[Pascal Scheffers]

And that's one of the other hard-to-swallow things that I really hope Red addresses. It's going to cost $500 per ability to download these SSD? On Red CF, i could buy a nice FW800 CF Lexar reader for under $100. Shit, if I get desperate, I can go to Walmart and buy a $15 reader and it'd work for me. The RedDrive had the connectors on it, so no reader at all necessary. So the new extra $1000 to get two readers is another ouch :emote_whack:

It's $500 for two. but. Yea, I'd have to agree. Just an E-Sata port for offloading would be nice. But remember, they're 1.8" drives. They're small. If dirt got into those ports or something broke... and those sata ports not made for frequent field use. We all know what cables look like after just a short time. Still... I can't see why the sata logic can't reside on the drive side and just a cheap cable could do the trick for the field. But I'm no EE.

 

[Paul Nordin]

I think my biggest problem is the proprietary system. I have no problem with RED making SSDs available. I actually think it's quite a wonderful solution but I don't like the fact that it has to be RED SSDs only.

I think you are marginalizing Jarred's statement that the main reason for needing to use thier SSDs is reliability and service life of both the media and the connectors. Off the shelf SSDs have flaky connectors that are engineered to support a few dozen inserts/removals because they typically get placed into computers once.

These SSDs will undergo thousands of in/out cycles. It would be pretty impactical for Red to put R&D into supporting both when they are pretty much guaranteed customer disatisfaction from using the commercial grade equipment.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

The readers are only $250/each; you don't need to buy the $250 base station unless you want to power other readers in a "stack".

$250 for a reader doesn't seem too high, given all the problems people have been having with footage being corrupted during transfer.

oh seriously? i thought the power station was necessary to even juice any module with power

 

[Eythan Holladay]

I pray the CF/Red Drive isn't EOL -
I am one of those folks that scraped together enough to get a working R1. I had a whole brain dump written, but am hesitant to come across as a whiner.

 

[Paul Nordin]

oh seriously? i thought the power station was necessary to even juice any module with power

Nope. Jarred stated that the 1.8" download station can work standalone either with powered Firewire or wall-wart

 

[Erich Ocean]

oh seriously? i thought the power station was necessary to even juice any module with power

Here's what Jarred said:

Base Is optional remember... the 1.8" SSD Station ( and 2.5" Station ) can both be bus powered off of firewire. If you are using Esata ( like you should ) then the Base Station powers a whole stack of modules so you dont have individual power cords and wall warts.

UPDATE: Paul beat me to it.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

I pray the CF/Red Drive isn't EOL -
I am one of those folks that scraped together enough to get a working R1. I had a whole brain dump written, but am hesitant to come across as a whiner.

Red Drives were already announces for certain to be EOL. And they are already being sold for original cost or more on the open market. On CF cards, Jarred said we can "forget" the 64gb CF, which to me is a pretty loud indicator that the 16gb are the last of the CF. Since they are proprietary, I'm guessing that however many they have currently in stock is how many they have left. Unless of course, Red certifies a new batch of open market CFs for use in Scarlet and Red One.

 

[Robert Horwell]

Yesssss.....the answer to my prayer...thank you...

 

[Shawn Nelson]

Here's what Jarred said:



UPDATE: Paul beat me to it.

Okay cool, at least it'll only cost me $500 to have two readers!

 

[Paul Nordin]

Unless of course, Red certifies a new batch of open market CFs for use in Scarlet and Red One.

Shawn, I wouldn't bet much given the rate of change, but I would bet a couple of bucks that Red will keep the CF route open and stocked going forward. It will be a main source of recording media for Scarlet, which is targeted to a much less pricey market segment. Sure, maybe some of them will spring for the SSD option, but likely not the majority. For Red -not- to have a healthy CF option for Scarlet would be a massive mistake in my opinion, and price the cam out of reach of many many potential customers. I don't believe Red is oblivious to that point.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I pray the CF/Red Drive isn't EOL -
I am one of those folks that scraped together enough to get a working R1. I had a whole brain dump written, but am hesitant to come across as a whiner.

Eythan, RED-Drive is the only one officially EOL'd right now. If you currently have two drives, you may want to keep any eye on the market and at least pick up one more as a backup. As long as they keep working, you're not dead in the water with this news. It's just that RED is heading in a new direction, so the old media is no longer available in the Red store.

By the way, I respect people who scraped up just enough to get their system. I completely understand the situation you are in as you watch these developments. Rest assured, I think there will be many ways to keep your RED working into the future. It may not be via the RED store but there will be ways.

 

[David Rasberry]

Shawn, I wouldn't bet much given the rate of change, but I would bet a couple of bucks that Red will keep the CF route open and stocked going forward. It will be a main source of recording media for Scarlet, which is targeted to a much less pricey market segment. Sure, maybe some of them will spring for the SSD option, but likely not the majority. For Red -not- to have a healthy CF option for Scarlet would be a massive mistake in my opinion, and price the cam out of reach of many many potential customers. I don't believe Red is oblivious to that point.

Even for Scarlet the performance potential will be limited by CF cards. Maybe they will support C-fast media too?

 

[Paul Nordin]

Even for Scarlet the performance potential will be limited by CF cards. Maybe they will support C-fast media too?

Yes, that's true. But almost every camera system has low-med-high options to address the needs and budgets of different users. CF on Scarlet can work fine for most daily types of shooting. When more is needed, then upgrades can be purchased or SSD recording options rented. Pretty much the same everywhere.

 

[AaronPicot]

... and that does NOT include the $ saved on the DIT's reduced overtime.

.....niiiiice

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

whiners! the whole lot of you, especially you Nelson! ha ha kidding.

Can we all agree that PRO Cinema Camera ownership is NOT cheap... and if you dont have a model to monetize it in this economy, then its probably not a wise choice to buy it because of the "COOL FACTOR" - especially with Scarlet on the heels of EPIC.

EPIC is a pro-camera that is poised to blow every other camera available out of the water... and at a price point half of its competitors... so $5000 worth of media or $15,000 IS REALLY CHEAP on a moderate to low budget film or commercial project...

and the peace of mind that its RED rugged and fast and reliable.. is PRICELESS.

Ask Steve Freebairn who works on HUGE movies... its all relative, as to him this is a pittance for the peace of mind it delivers on multi million dollar budgets.

Kind of like people complaining that the case for their gear cost so much... when its protecting that gear they just bought!

Not trying to be an ass or elitist ... but this $ talk all sounds "penny wise but pound foolish." mostly from owner operators that are budgeting to buy EPIC (some even saving for months.. working extra jobs etc) and that is not very sound business.

Especially with an equally astounding SCARLET in the wings that is more suited for owner operators and especially for Indies.

Jannard dreamt this company up to make KILLER and AFFORDABLE PRO and PROSUMER cameras... and I personally think these prices are awesome.

If you are looking at your budgets and grimacing, then I would take a long hard look at WANT versus NEED. It is very exciting to get carried away with all of this killer kit, but at the end of the day, unless you are wealthy and dont give a fuck... this is a BUSINESS and every purchase needs to pay for itself or be liquidated.

Still a very tough market out there, so it pays to be even more prudent is all I am saying. If I cant recoup my investment, then I will just rent it from Koerner or Shawn Nelson... like I do with Red Drives

 

[Steve Freebairn]

Tim is right that you don't want to be penny wise and pound foolish. I do know both sides of the issue though as I work with lots of productions that shoot commercials with budgets under a few thousand dollars. That is one issue that RED faces, they cover the entire spectrum. Pirates 4 is shooting RED, but so are some really low end commercials. It's an amazing problem to have.

The good news is, you guys are really going to like the RED Download stations, I'm going to do a post in a few hours once I'm set back up, you're really going to like what is possible with the new stuff.

I questioned whether the RED Download station would be worth it, and the short answer is, yes yes yes.

 

[Paul Nordin]

unless you are wealthy and dont give a fuck... this is a BUSINESS and every purchase needs to pay for itself or be liquidated.

Brilliant.

I'd only add that the current payback on any purchase of camera equipment should be 12-18 months max (arguably excluding lenses, although what happens to the rental value of RPP when RPP-Anamrophics are released?). That doesn't mean you make your money back. That means you experience that profit after overhead.

Any longer than that and you start to fall off the cliff of being able to stay relevant in your chosen market.

(Edit: woo hoo, I made it to tripple digits after 4 years. I'm quiet, but deadly)