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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Something I noticed

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Mohamed Younis

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I remember seeing a thread a while back about leaving 800 as the default on the Epic. I took some test shots daylight interior and i noticed a lot of noise. I just did a black shading calibration a few days back. I was frustrated then i tried shooting the same footage at 320. I noticed that there was practically no noise at all.
Is it normal to see noise at 800 even when shooting with sufficient light?
Should I try to always use the lowest asa i can get away with?
Thoughts?
 
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I use 320 for everything... night, day, you name it..
I hardly ever see noise.

800asa is for a little bit of head room for people that tend to over expose... it keeps detail in the whites, like a mini insurance policy. If you are really good at maintaining non clipped exposures, stick with 320 I say......
 
Reading other threads about this, people seem genuinely divided about whether to use 320 or 800 as the default setting. One argument is that 320 is where the sensor performs best but rating it at 800 is "better" but only because it ensures better protection of highlights. I have only had the Epic X for several days but already my own view is that I will be leaving it at 320.
 
So let's say I'm shooting in bright daylight outdoors, with no NDs, it's better to shoot 800 as it wont clip the highlights?
 
Interesting. It has been suggested that there will be slightly less DR at an ISO lower than 800. Thoughts? I recently shot in the fog and got quite a bit of noise. I imagin If I had rated the Epic at 200 or 320 I would have had better results and less noise since it was a very flat light. Still learning all the time.
 
I see more noise with both my epic and scarlet than I did with the original red one. I keep it at 320 and get the noise profile I like. I just don't over expose.
 
You get the most balanced exosure at 800, personally I do not see any noise. In fact I only see a bit of texture at 1600.
One question I'd ask is where are you seeing this noise? If it's on the camera monitor and output ignore it. Look at fully debayered images from either a rocket or a transcode/output.

In my experience the Epic is at least 1 stop cleaner than the R1 MX. The onboard viewing options do seem noisier though.
 
Evin Grant said:
You get the most balanced exosure at 800, personally I do not see any noise. In fact I only see a bit of texture at 1600.
One question I'd ask is where are you seeing this noise? If it's on the camera monitor and output ignore it. Look at fully debayered images from either a rocket or a transcode/output.

In my experience the Epic is at least 1 stop cleaner than the R1 MX. The onboard viewing options do seem noisier though.
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Agreed. No noise whatsoever at 800.
 
Native is 320... from what i understand and what we do is always stay at 320.... its only metadata... I find the only reliable way to meter is to look at "exposure" in menu items.. try to minimize the red for clipped highlight and purples for clipped darks... You can always increase ISO in red cine... absolutely no point to change it on the camera... not even sure why iso is an option camera... I wish Red would make this clear
 
the camera is still a 320 sensor. but with the re design for MX over M, the noise floor was much much lower. since the M sensor had a uneven curve and retained a lot more detail in the shadow areas, more than the top end, increasing the gain would shift the mid point so that you have a more even steps in your DR. thus giving you more highlight retention if you exposed and shot for 800 and kept it at that. giving you the most "filmic" look the camera can give you, with the sacrifice of having a little noise. that's why I always talk to the dp and ask if they want more look and feel or care more about noise. it's not just about protecting your clipping, it's about that last extra stop to half a stop or so and how it rolls off. if you clip at 320 it's just this glob because the mid point is so much lower and it clips out very early, exactly the way the M sensor would. you clip out or get close to clipping at 800 and the highlight rolloff is much smoother and more buttery.

and that's what a lot of DP's look for, how that highlight looks, and how the exposure just gradually rolls in tonal range. you can accomplish something similar at 320 but it's much harder lighting it, and you have to get your ratios perfect. i prefer the look of 800 and doing some noise reduction. there is so much resolution it can withstand a little. (just my opinion)
 
I think that Red HAS made it pretty clear. My personal choice is to use the RAW view with FOCUS assist on. I don't have it in front of me, but to the best of my recollection when I ran a test comparison, the RAW is close to 320ISO and either 4800 or 5000 Kelvin.

You can check for noise on the candlestick bar just left of the histogram which I have tested to be always right, regardless of what look or brightness levels you choose in the monitors. If it is more than 1/4 to 1/3 red, you need to readjust your exposure and get some more light in there. Conversely, use the stoplights and bar on the right to make sure you are not clipping your highlights. If I am in a viewing mode other than RAW, if those signals are good, you wont crush the blacks and won't blow-out the highlights in RAW (which is what I care about), I don't care what the image on the screen says.

If the camera didn't shoot raw, then I would have to rely on all the other factors and get the ISO etc spot on.....gotta love the RAW!!

By the way, all of the above are in the manual.

Edit: Tom Wong is also quite correct in that your scene needs to be lit such that the darkest dark and the brightest light are within the dynamic range of the camera. If it isn't then protect the highlights and add some light to fill-in the darks to get them in range. If extra lighting for the blacks is not an option, without exception protect your highlights and take some noise in the blacks and correct as much of it as you can in post.
 
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Tom.Wong said:
the camera is still a 320 sensor. but with the re design for MX over M, the noise floor was much much lower. since the M sensor had a uneven curve and retained a lot more detail in the shadow areas, more than the top end, increasing the gain would shift the mid point so that you have a more even steps in your DR. thus giving you more highlight retention if you exposed and shot for 800 and kept it at that. giving you the most "filmic" look the camera can give you, with the sacrifice of having a little noise. that's why I always talk to the dp and ask if they want more look and feel or care more about noise. it's not just about protecting your clipping, it's about that last extra stop to half a stop or so and how it rolls off. if you clip at 320 it's just this glob because the mid point is so much lower and it clips out very early, exactly the way the M sensor would. you clip out or get close to clipping at 800 and the highlight rolloff is much smoother and more buttery.

and that's what a lot of DP's look for, how that highlight looks, and how the exposure just gradually rolls in tonal range. you can accomplish something similar at 320 but it's much harder lighting it, and you have to get your ratios perfect. i prefer the look of 800 and doing some noise reduction. there is so much resolution it can withstand a little. (just my opinion)
Click to expand...

Great post Tom. I love the highlight roll off @ 800.
 
The "smoother" highlight roll off at ISO800 is just underexposing to protect highlights more. We'd get exactly the same results at ISO320, and protecting highlights by reducing exposure with iris/ND filters/reduced lighting levels.

As has already been mentioned, the areas where detail retention is desired in the final grade, need to be kept above the noise floor and below clipping. If shooting conditions and lighting prevent this, we have to prioritise highlights, mids or shadow areas, knowing we will lose some areas.

The great thing is Red has given us a choice of several exposure strategies and exposure tools, so use whatever methods feel most comfortable/intuitive. As long as the results are good - it doesn't matter what method we use.

I personally prefer IS0320 and the purple/red exposure tool, primarily with quick checks of the other tools.

Edit: The main reasons, for me personally, to go to higher than ISO320 is if post production is NOT going to a grade from the RAW files and wants the files to be as close to the final image as possible straight off the camera. And to give a brighter monitoring image in dark conditions (or to reassure clients that the picture isn't too dark!)
 
640 int. 800 to 1000 daylight ext. If needed up to 1600
 
I just couldnt understand why people said no noise at iso800, it almost sound to me that they have different sensor.

Jay.a.kelley if u read this thread, this will be ur top mission in ur online course

Rivai
 
Mohamed Younis said:
How do you handle the noise in post? Noise reduction software?
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Neat Video is the what many of us use :) Inexpensive and makes shots usable all the way up to 12800. I tend to shoot in the 320-800 world. Anything past that and Neat Video is what I use.
 
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