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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Some Audio Testing Results

Nothing.... I´m so swamped with work that I can only switch on the camera and shoot meaningless crap in between in my studio. (and get annoyed when the fan kicks in).

So far, I can´t imagine using an on camera mike and having the charger as my power source. I dont even have to record anything to come to that conclusion. Maybe in silent mode, but then the fan goes up in standby - and that *is* loud enough to go on my nerves.

Another thing: I can imagine some embarrassing situations when you switch on the camera after a battery change - and the fan goes into take off mode for 15 seconds.

Jochen
 
Josch said:
Unfortunatly without a proper measurement any answers to those questions are boardering on the meaningless.
Click to expand...

I know.. You are right of course..
But I'm looking for help to decide whether to cancel my order or not..:unsure:

All my work is EFP, and most of it very lightweight, self-sufficient stuff, with audio and camera together..
 
donatello said:
56-64 degrees - it all depends on the mood of 103 that day & time ???

interior 68 degrees !! red 103 goes out of quite mode after about 20 min .. when i hit record the fans remain same level .. i can switch to all other fan modes and it does NOT go down ... you can tell me it should go down BUT i have the camera in front of me and it does NOT going down ...i can restart , reload firmware etc and it remains the same ..
Click to expand...

Whoa! This is scary. Unless this is fixable with a firmware upgrade (thermodynamics not seemingly the kind of thing that can be fixed with software) I don't see how the Red will be viable for any sort of long form doc or EFP work.

My brother recently visited the company that makes the Red sensor and saw it (the sensor) in testing mode. It had several fans blowing on it full blast. I guess it is impressive that the heat management is as good as it is in camera, though it sounds like it might not be good enough for long form stuff. Anxiously awaiting the results of your Saturday tests Donatello!

Peter
 
Peter Richardson said:
Whoa! This is scary. Unless this is fixable with a firmware upgrade (thermodynamics not seemingly the kind of thing that can be fixed with software) I don't see how the Red will be viable for any sort of long form doc or EFP work.
Click to expand...

Exactamundo dude..

Peter Richardson said:
My brother recently visited the company that makes the Red sensor..

Peter
Click to expand...

Ooo you've opened a can of worms there! Is it common knowledge now who makes the sensor? Maybe I blinked and missed that :clown2:
 
fergus said:
Exactamundo dude..



Ooo you've opened a can of worms there! Is it common knowledge now who makes the sensor? Maybe I blinked and missed that :clown2:
Click to expand...

Yeah, this audio stuff is really worrisome. No pots I was willing to work around, but if I can't shoot all day on a doc in x temperature without the fans kicking on in the middle of a shot, well...

The sensor stuff isn't common knowledge I don't think. I haven't mentioned the name of the company because I love Red (assuming they fix the audio, hahaha) and I know they like to keep this a secret. And then if I say the name of the company everyone will debate it and it will take Jim himself to say yay or nay....which he won't. So the name of the company that makes the mysterium sensor is...maybe I will give hints :) That could be fun.

Peter
 
I am so suprised that there are so few people concerned that the camera looks like the audio will be unusable after the camera has been on for 20minutes.
 
Finner said:
I am so suprised that there are so few people concerned that the camera looks like the audio will be unusable after the camera has been on for 20minutes.
Click to expand...

fergus said:
lol.. maybe you could auction the knowledge on ebay :-)
Click to expand...

That's an idea :)

Yeah this is pretty much a deal breaker for me as well. I hope we get a clear answer on this soon -- theoretically I should receive my camera some time in March.

We are all counting on Donatello to give us great feedback from his tests this weekend!

It would be great to hear from Red at this point, as well, to see if any of these concerns can be allayed. Even if this were an issue that couldn't be solved, I think Red has done a marvelous job of delivering what they set out to do: a digital cinema camera. It just won't be an EFP replacement, which sucks for the EFP and doc folks like us.

Peter
 
Peter Richardson said:
...if I can't shoot all day on a doc in x temperature without the fans kicking on in the middle of a shot, well...

Peter
Click to expand...


Given the camera's fan can be heard while shooting.

This will affect everyone who shoots and records sound no matter what style employed: Narrative, ENG, Doc... and any talk about ADR amongst the narrative crowd needs to remember that ADR can be extra $$$, and too often, it's not the best performance.

Think about shooting a narrative scene in a small quiet room for a very quiet intimate conversation between two actors; this equally applies to docs and ENG. The fan noise will come through. It won't matter if there's a dual system in use or not, fan noise will come through. The fan must be controllable or the audio will be ruined. Blimping the camera is one solution, but hopefully the fan noise issue will be addressed internally.

Schedules & budgets depend upon consistent dependable tools. Fans turning on/off randomly is not acceptable performance. It's already difficult enough shooting with actor inconsistencies. This camera must be quiet, dependable, high quality picture and audio at an afforadable price.

I trust Jannard & team will solve these issues. It just might take more time than we wish. Patience is a virtue.
 
It would be really nice if a red employee would coment on all this.
 
For those that have worked with an audio enabled camera, I would like to get their impression of each of the following aspects:

1) Soft only gain settings, is this a problem?
2) The lack of a limiter function, is this a problem?
3) The noise performance when in line input mode.
4) The noise performance when in mic input mode (please specify mics used).
5) Currently available post audio tools for .r3d material and what would be a desirable set of features for future tools.
6) In camera audio playback and monitoring quality.

I would be most appreciative of any input offered on some or all of these questions.

Thanks!

Kevin
 
Finner said:
It would be really nice if a red employee would coment on all this.
Click to expand...

Yeah. I agree.

Maybe if I started a thread in the RED1 section: "I'm thinking of cancelling my order because the audio is unusable for EFP". They might notice..:)

Still my hunch is that we have a couple of weeks to wait still before we have a definitive answer to the audio-for-EFP question. We need someone to have a REDdrive and do and hour non-stop recording test.

Although I agree with you that this is something RED have surely done already and could comment on :innocent:
 
10s said:
Given the camera's fan can be heard while shooting.

This will affect everyone who shoots and records sound no matter what style employed:
Click to expand...


I think the evidence is that the Camera can be used on Narrative film production without significant audio problems. I think this the way they've designed it: the fans will go into Silent mode for 15 minutes, and then ramp up as the camera gets too hot. As yo know, 15 minutes is a long take in narrative filming, you would almost always cut well before then, and as soon as you cut and everyone starts fussing around the set the fans kick in to blast the temperature down again before another Take. Which is fine..

The issue I believe is that this kind of temperature control system will seriously inconvenience many EFP and ENG people, whose takes are often much longer than 15-20 minutes, and whose environment may not be as owned and controlled as a feature film set (recording a live public performance for example).
 
fergus said:
I think the evidence is that the Camera can be used on Narrative film production without significant audio problems. I think this the way they've designed it: the fans will go into Silent mode for 15 minutes, and then ramp up as the camera gets too hot. As yo know, 15 minutes is a long take in narrative filming, you would almost always cut well before then, and as soon as you cut and everyone starts fussing around the set the fans kick in to blast the temperature down again before another Take. Which is fine..
Click to expand...


Fergus, you make a valid point, but it still isn't optimal. Hopefully it can perform without having the fan cut in during many additional takes. Overall, I'll assume it must be fine, otherwise major directors would have stopped using it. Last I heard, a few of them really love it! Now that's great news!!!

The fan issue might interfere somewhat on the new type of HD directing style, that Robert Rodriguiez, Mel Gibson and others have used with their HD set up. (letting the camera roll for long takes, talking to the actors and adjusting performances while shooting without stopping or marking the shots.
That's an assistant editor's logging nightmare :devil: but the directors and actors love it.)

I'm counting on this fan issue being resolved at some time in the future, maybe not soon, but eventually. I'll know better once I get mine.
 
10s said:
The fan issue might interfere somewhat on the new type of HD directing style, that Robert Rodriguiez, Mel Gibson and others have used with their HD set up. (letting the camera roll for long takes, talking to the actors and adjusting performances while shooting without stopping or marking the shots.
Click to expand...

Yes! I hadn't thought of that. That would be a problem huh.. I was assuming a much more traditional scenario, where we all break and make a hell of a lot of noise every time the mag needs changing; so the Fans running on hurricane to cool down the camera wouldn't really be noticed.

Anyway I think the thing is that it takes great pictures etc, so you could develop workflows on a film set that accommodate RED's foibles, but that will not be an option in a lot of EFP work

yadda yadda.. I keep saying the same thing! I'll shut up now.. :)
 
thomas said:
hi all

also did a test with the new red camera for a tv series, especially to test
timecode ability and analog inputs. the setup was:
red camera (software build 13)
sd744T (latest software version)
ambient clock it
25fps pal, 4k recording on the camera
camera jam synced with 5pin lemo
audio was sent to input 1 on the red camera, directly from sound
devices

then the whole tests were imported into final cut studio (fcp6), and
synced

RESULT was about 2 frames difference between audio directly sent to
the camera and the audio from the sd744t, delay seemed to be constant.

has anybody had similar experiences, does the camera have a delay on
the incoming audio?

thomas
Click to expand...

I finally read up on FCP about syncing audio and got a chance to try out my clips that I captured a while back with build 12. We used a 5pin to 5 pin lemo connector to a Sound Devices 744T. I had the same sync issue you did, it was off by exactly 2 frames.

I would do another test with build 13, but one end of our lemo cable got crushed in a case, so we have to get another one ordered. There goes $75.

We did some more testing with build 13, running through a Sound Devices 302 Mixer, a Wendt NGS-X2 Mixer and directly to the camera. While going through the mixers at line level on the camera everything sounds great, especially with the Sound Devices Mixer, going direclty into the camera using mic level with no mixer we still get a fair ammount hiss, it sounds to us like pre-amp white noise type hiss. Neither of the mixers had this hiss.
 
JFirestone said:
We did some more testing with build 13, running through a Sound Devices 302 Mixer, a Wendt NGS-X2 Mixer and directly to the camera. While going through the mixers at line level on the camera everything sounds great, especially with the Sound Devices Mixer, going direclty into the camera using mic level with no mixer we still get a fair ammount hiss, it sounds to us like pre-amp white noise type hiss. Neither of the mixers had this hiss.
Click to expand...
you mean that you powered your mic through mixer and you have audio output from mic to camer's line ..? or i coudn't understand what you mean ?
 
BASSAM MSSALATIE said:
you mean that you powered your mic through mixer and you have audio output from mic to camer's line ..? or i coudn't understand what you mean ?
Click to expand...

The microphone requires phantom power, so when we ran it through the mixers, it was powered by the mixers. When using the mixers the camera was set to Line Level. When the mic was connected directly to the camera without a mixer, the camera provided the phantom power and was set to Mic level with +48V.
 
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