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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

So what has the Red revolution caused till now?

Come on! That is the most negative post I've read for a lot of reasons!

The RED is absolutely revolutionary! What's changed, a bunch of people own their own PL mount s35 cameras. As a regular dude, you can own what amounts to a 35mm film camera with all the film & processing you could ever want.

That alone is a revolution in my opinion, it's totally changed the kind of work I've been able to get, and is ushering in a new era of film makers/post people who are more tech savvy, and have always found the RED workflow to be pretty straight forward. I for one have grown up fighting with programs like MAYA and RENDERMAN, which make RED post workflow look like using Microsoft Word.

Anyone still fighting with the workflow should subscribe to the RED podcasts/ check out the fxphd classes. DEAD EASY now.

my 2 cents !

PS. thanks red :)
 
- Red, cheap 4K, 120 fps, no grain is amazing stuff for VFX department
- Red owners are mostly newly created target group for other film equipment manufacturers, both new and old ones
- we can get rid of that digitaly oversharpened HD crap
- and finally we can get stuning picture almost in all areas of cinema/tv/web where it wasn't possible due to high costs of 35mm technology - documentary, news, home video etc.
Still waiting for some NASAs Red 4K footage from orbit, on 4K screen :drool5:

Hope some of REDs will catch smooth 4K footage of ufo :conehead:

p.s. no wonder that here is less buzz on reduser, because everybody is out shooting with their amazing cameras :sifone:
 
I too disagree with the negative and oddly defeatist tone of the post. It just does not match the reality. We are at the beginning of something, not the end.

I also think that Red can legitimately claim that it has made a revolutionary product. A number of different technologies have converged in a very short period of time to create a unique product and made it available to a sector of the market which could never previously dream of owning and using such gear.

I am just planning my next doco which I am about to shoot on a 4K camera using 35 mm glass - hey thats revolutionary for me and my film partners!

Rob
 
"Men have become tools of their tools."

-Henry David Thoreau

The Red One is just another tool in our arsenal--albeit an unprecedented one. Don't make it something it isn't. Now, if people write better scripts and strive
to make better films because they are somehow inspired by this tool that's great.

-Michael Jacob Kerber
D.P. / L.A.
 
Now I feel that the Reduser forum is under artificial respiration. Nothing really interesting or new.
Click to expand...

I've only been a member of these forums for about a month and a half. In that time I've seen:
  1. the introduction of the RED Pro line of lenses
  2. The whole "New German Lenses" deal
  3. Birger mounts
  4. Impero, etc
  5. First still shot from Scarlet
  6. First footage from Scarlet
  7. first prototype pics of Scarlet
  8. First still shot from the 5K sensor
  9. The announcement that "things are changing again"
  10. REDuser party
  11. Build 18 beta

Not to mention ongoing discussions of applications, workflow, recommendations on setup and equipment, and a couple of recent and future major features filmed on RED.

I call all that interesting and/or new...
 
David Mullen ASC said:
"Revolutionary" is certainly a good marketing phrase and if it works for RED, I don't have a problem with that. I just wish others would not throw it around so casually because then the term starts to become meaningless. But then, perhaps it's just a personality-type issue -- I'm "hyperbole adverse."
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David,

100 years of Film Labs (Correct me if I am wrong about the history of film labs) are challenged by set of people who handle the entire post. It includes all the digital cinema cameras and red made it to more people than others with data centric workflow. With advent of Digital Cinema Projections you don't even have to think of going to print. With so many hue and cry or made with film prints around theatres after people given a chance to see digital exhibition.

Is it not revolutionary has Red is one of the major player in this arena?
 
A revolution is a complete change of a system. This isn't the case here. Sure, there are more people who are able to buy now a Cinema Camera, but it's still very expensive for the most of us. A look at the "Shot on Red" page on the Red website just proves that : there are almost only big budgets features. The revolution would be to offer a S35 cinema camera for less than $3000, which is already a lot of money for some people. And some of these people have probably more interesting things to say/to film than some "big pros".

And, if you're carefully look at what digital cinema offers, there's one crucial thing which is a real step back compared to film : perenity. Nobody will be able to watch the R3D files in 30 years, on which support, with which gear ? Nobody knows.

If you have the money, film is still the format of choice if you're making features, just for that : archiving. But if you're shooting music videos, commercials, etc... nobody will want to see your pictures in 30 years anyway ! :cool: Just kiddin' !
 
gbalaji said:
David,

100 years of Film Labs (Correct me if I am wrong about the history of film labs) are challenged by set of people who handle the entire post.
Click to expand...

So what was so wrong about film labs? What was so creatively damaging about not processing the film yourself? And since when is RED responsible for digital post-production? You could have shot digitally, posted digitally, and now screened digitally even if RED never came into existence. People have been able to do their own version of digital conforming and online for years now. You can even shoot film and do that if you wanted to, finish completely digitally.

I don't get this whole notion that the impediment to making movies was the existence of labs and lab people. A lot of those folks worked very hard to help independent filmmakers over the years.

This all comes back to blaming film technology for somehow stopping someone from making a movie, yet low-budget independent filmmakers have managed to exist and work and succeed before the existence of RED.

Besides, it doesn't really matter if every first-run theater converts to digital projection if the exhibitors will only show movies released by major distributors -- the bottleneck to distribution isn't technical, it's not what format you shot on.

Again, people are putting technology on a pedestal and worshipping it. The point isn't the technology. Very few of the roadblocks are technical either. The hardest part was never finding a camera or finishing post -- it was telling stories that audiences wanted to watch with compelling performances, and getting a distributor to release it with sufficient marketing behind it to make sure people were excited to see it. I don't see some "trick" around this. The hard work of filmmaking is still hard work and creative and financial success is just as challenging as ever.

RED is a major part of a process, a technical transformation of the industry, but does that make RED a revolution unto itself? It's not the first 4K RAW camera, it's not the first low-cost 24P camera, it's not the first camera to record data files rather than video onto tape, it's not the first digital cine camera with a 35mm sensor. But it did all of this at a major reduction in price and created new workflows that are becoming integrated into a tape-based industry -- that's significant. It's a major accomplishment.

Soon there will be competitors to RED and every kid will be able to pick up a DSLR and shoot at least 1080P with a 35mm sensor... and then what? Will movies become fundamentally better? Will audiences pay real money to see all these movies shot on cheap 35mm digital cameras? Or with everyone shooting technically high-quality 35mm-like images... that will just become the NORM and we'll be back to Square One in figuring out how to stand out from the pack, excite viewers, etc. with a lot more up our sleeve the simply how good the picture looks. It will just go back to all the things that have always mattered -- craft, skill, original ideas, etc.
 
Cal Brunker said:
Come on! That is the most negative post I've read for a lot of reasons!
Click to expand...
this is because you do not know david aka gdv..

edit
run.. if you'll have the luck :ciappa: to find his ebay offers.. that is.. if he'll sell it to you instead to anyone else.. no matter if you won the bid ehehehehe
 
gdv said:
A few feature films were shot with Red, but considering the fact that around 5000 bodies were made, I think it is nothing.
Click to expand...

I'd guess 100+ features have already been shot on RED. Many are small. A lot are in post. Music videos, TV commercials and now TV shows have been massively impacted by RED.

No DP's are talking about RED? Which 5 old timers would that be? I'm sure EVERY DP has had a conversation about RED by this point.

Revolution? I don't know the definition but I'm thinking it's a camera with RED's capabilities at $3k.


David Mullen said:
Or with everyone shooting technically high-quality 35mm-like images... that will just become the NORM and we'll be back to Square One in figuring out how to stand out from the pack, excite viewers, etc. with a lot more up our sleeve the simply how good the picture looks. It will just go back to all the things that have always mattered -- craft, skill, original ideas, etc.
Click to expand...

I might liken it to professional golf. A number 60 player today is probably a top 10 player 30 years ago due to a combination of the total number of people attempting to play professionally and modern training techniques.

Because so many more people will be attempting to be filmmakers there will be more total good ones. And more bad ones.
 
gdv said:
I would like to start a discussion summarizing what has the so called "Red revolution" has done till now.
I can come up with a few points to start with.
1. Made the prices of some PL mount lenses doubled. Now prices are going back down.
2. A few manufacturers came with accessories into the market (ET, VFS, "New Germans Primes" etc.) Some only work for the Red camera, so can work on others but we still don't know if they are good.
3. Prices for rental dropped quite a bit (I heard that in the Canada Ontario area Reds are free during the weekend, you pay for lenses. I know it is almost for nothing in my area.
4. A few feature films were shot with Red, but considering the fact that around 5000 bodies were made, I think it is nothing.
5. A chaos in the post workflow, never read so many confused users posts about what and how to do.
6. Big hype in the motion picture camera related industry between September 2007 (when first Red were delivered) and until a few months ago. Now I feel that the Reduser forum is under artificial respiration. Nothing really interesting or new.
7. The idea of the camera to be a platform for a digital screening projection seems not to happen yet.
8. The big cannons of the industry are ignoring the camera. Haven't heard much from the big feature DPs about this camera.
Please feel free to debate, agree or add to my points.
Surely I am missing a few as I leave in a remote part of the world,(though the world is flat as Tom Friedman suggested)
What then will be the future?
Scarlet Epic will not be out during Spring 2009, that was a long time said.
The shift from film to digital will happen, no doubt, but will Red will lead it? After all they are new players in the field, but maybe what they have done will delay it and not prompt it?
Click to expand...

Let's explore these points individually and the term "revolutionary" as it applies to the market, the industry, and the filmmaker.

Before we begin, since real names are important, I'll start by giving you one: so, gdv = Gladys Dunlevy Vanderplutz, and a very sexy bird she is. (I kid, I kid).

1. Introducing new high quality lens options in the PL format, by a new manufacturer, in what has previously been a static market is bound to cause some fluctuations in pricing. When the new primes are available, I'd expect prices to plunge. Red inventories and availability will bring down the price of PL mount glass across the board-- provided the lenses are of a sufficient quality. There is no reason to believe Red will fail at this.

2. Accessory manufacturers that follow Red's lead by drastically lowering the historical cost basis of professional cine equipment will live. Mfg's that cling to the old model will die. This opinion assumes no change in quality or durability-- factors that must be maintained relative to currently available solutions.

3. The center-of-gravity in the rental industry will shift away from larger rental firms to smaller, more boutique rental firms with strategic partnerships among them to fill out their inventories. After a time, attrition will further weaken the boutique market and allow a return to larger operations, provided the local market can sustain the production volume. There are two factors in this sector that Red has no bearing on: Shifting production away from historically concentrated areas due to excessive labor costs, and the availability of tax credit financing and the availability of credit or capital. Larger firms with greater access to capital needed to acquire the latest equipment will have the edge if innovation continues at a rapid pace. Otherwise, ownership will displace a significant portion of the rental market.

4. Traditional feature films are not a large enough metric to determine the market penetration of the Red camera. Features as we know them today will comprise less and less of the market in the near future. Episodic TV, Web delivered content, venue-specific content, and what used to known as "Home Video" will eclipse in volume the number of expensive feature films in the marketplace. Red (Scarlet especially) is designed to aggressively enter those emerging sectors and displace other options. While few high-profile features have been shot today, one cannot ignore Red's posture going forward. I would not judge Red's success by this metric alone. Feature films will be forced to shoot on a Red acquisition platform of some kind, almost entirely due to economics.

5. The term "Workflow" as it has applied to discussions on RedUser in the past and even now in the context of this thread must be redefined. Moving forward, with or without Red specifically, professionals in the field of motion picture post production, editing and finishing, must embrace the concept that innovation is the new normal. Therefore, there will be many solutions available to service the needs of "Post" and the days of predictable, flying on auto-pilot post workflows are no longer available. The "Post" professional of the very, very near future must adapt easily and readily and proactively to changes and improvements in "Post Workflows". One cannot master one type of workflow system and expect to compete or even be economically viable as a professional. No other segment of the economy that has made the transition from analog to digital over the last twenty years has been able to escape this fact. The fast, the nimble, the intelligent will rise. The old, the slow to adopt, the ignorant "not up to speed on current thinking" folks will fall by the wayside. This phenomena gives rise to new aesthetics in the medium and your traditional experience may no longer be relevant. So, get up to speed yesterday if you want to be relevant.

6. We are in a lull period here on Red User. In fact, in some sense, the other shoe has already dropped. We await the latest real world incarnations of the latest innovations: Scarlet and Epic and Red Ray. This is a natural and predictable ebb and flow as these new technologies are propagated through the manufacturing process.

7. There are external pressures affecting the transition to digital exhibition in the greater market at large. Namely the current global financial situation. The promised Red Ray player is delayed due primarily to the fact that Red is making an entirely new system of cameras. I wouldn't expect Red Ray players to be available until a year after the first Epics and Scarlets ship.

8. Gladys, you will be pleased to learn that you are now one of the big guns in the industry. There are many top people in the film industry that have embraced the Red. There are just as many if not more that are deathly afraid of it. The bottom line as I see it is the Red is a system in the midst of evolving. Because it is a system that has at it's core the fundamental characteristic to be changeable and adaptable through firmware, software and changing workflows, the users of the camera will determine it's fate. If the "Big Guns" in the industry ignore the camera now, they will have a much harder time adjusting to it when they are forced to use it later. So in this aspect of the Red, we are all big guns in the industry. And remember this fact as well, once you've arrived, you're no longer the brash new thing.

So, is Red revolutionary? I believe it is.
1. Because Red entered the market in larger numbers, more rapidly than any other competitor.
2. Red was created by a new company that had never made cameras before.
3. It eliminated the mechanical-petrochemical medium previously used to make professional moving images by emulating its characteristics more effectively than any other previously available digital solution.
4. It carried these innovations past acquisition and into the post workflow.
5. It broke the previous price barriers of the next available solutions analog or digital.
6. Red made professional tools more available to more filmmakers, even novices.
7. Is providing a vast new generation of Cinematographers with more practical experience using a 35mm professional camera.
8. Its making Kodak and Fuji and Agfa's film division less relevant economically, thus endangering their viability.
9. Is digital exhibition ready.
10. Is providing for the first time, a closed loop development environment for the creation of vastly superior optics that will challenge existing manufacturers.

So, in my opinion, Red's footprint on the film industry is huge. But the capabilities it provides to the individual filmmaker is even larger. I'd call that revolutionary.
 
Well said Jeff Coatney...you saved me a lot of typing. I tend to agree with almost all of what you posted.

The policy for using real names was put in place by Jarred clear last November. I think its ridiculous that someone like gdv, with no real name or public profile posted, can start a FUD-laden thread, and simply hide in anonymity. No real names opens the door to trolls, competing company plants, etc. Last November Jarred finally made the move toward real names - which brings accountability, verification of backgrounds, etc. For obvious reasons, I think its time for that real names policy to be enforced. How about it Jarred and moderators here?

The myopic, often elitist view that RED (and Epic/Scarlet) are just for features and narrative work is ludicrous. These cameras have been, are, and will be used in a broad array of motion media (and stills in the case of DSMC) genres and sub-genres. The flexibility and broad utility of RED has enabled that.

To use an analogy, if painting is what you do, then the availability of affordable, adaptable, and broad-utility paint brushes is critical to your craft. RED has, is, and will be supplying that type of paint brushes to us painters. Before RED, who supplied such affordable, adaptable, broad-utility paint brushes to us? Nobody...

The Four T's for a successful professional in this industry: We're born with talent (talent isn't learned), we must seek training, we learn to have tenacity - but the final, and critical "T" in the mix is technology.

If RED is a "revolution", then the core of that revolution is actually REDCODE. The hardware of RED cameras, R1 and Epic/Scarlet, is evolutionary, but when combined with REDCODE capability, the result is a significant step forward in this industry, that could be called revolutionary.

The walls of the high-end production fiefdom are now crumbling, enabled in part by progressive camera equipment manufacturers like RED. Darwinian Natural Selection, where those who do not evolve with the changing conditions and pressures around them simply go extinct, is very much in effect in this industry. Yes, talent, craft, and artistry will always be the core of the image making industry - but ultimately those who adopt affordable and high utility technology, and then have the increased chance to develop their craft, talents, and skill sets, will then have the opportunity to out-compete their peers who either don't evolve or evolve too slowly.

Those with "ostrich syndrome", who put their head down into the sand thinking the danger will just be temporary, will be among the first to go extinct. Pull your head out of the sand, and look around you - the shakeout began years ago, and is accelerating daily.
 
Sigh...

Sigh...

What do I think... Well let the typing begin!!!

:beatdeadhorse:

There... enough said...

We have debated this so many times. All DVG, VGD, GMAC, whatever, needed to do was post a few "hot buttons" and he KNEW we'd all come running to debate it.

NAB is coming and it's gonna be fun! See you there Steve

Jay
 
arrinick said:
Care to clarify what exactly this is supposed to mean?
Click to expand...

Sure...

Flexible, affordable, high-utility tools placed in the hands of otherwise talented workers, enables them to more rapidly enhance their skill sets, thus more quickly allowing them to compete in the marketplace. Prior to flexible, affordable, high-utility tools like RED, those individuals had very little chance of rapidly advancing, or in the case of indies, bidding or proposing high-end projects, They simply hadn't had the chance to get high-end capable tools in their hands to gain experience with them. Camera systems like RED changed that.

Then, armed with affordable, broad utility camera systems, and the acquired expertise to use them, indie producers are able to bid or propose projects they couldn't before. In a budget-challenged marketplace, clients, networks, etc are interested in the best looking product they can get - at the best price they can get. All things being equal (talent, etc.), those who maximize technology, while minimizing overhead (expenses), can simply out-bid or out-propose those who can't.

This is a business increasingly under budget constraints - and those who can bring a great looking product for a reasonable price will have the best chance to out-compete their peers.
 
Yeah, I think RED is going to be the standard once people get over the whole myth about it "not working right". So far, that's the only thing I've heard from people when I talk to them about RED (teachers, students, etc.). The next issue is the whole storage and backup question but that's always been there since Mini-DV.

Once SSD drives get higher capacities, a lot of the storage and backup issues are going to be solved. As far as the "not working right" thing goes, once we get to a build that combines all of the best qualities and stability of previous builds, constant good word of mouth will be sure to spread. Also, more Hollywood productions using the RED One/Scarlet/Epic will help too because, believe it or not, "Knowing" is doing a lot of good right now as far as getting people's interest for going RED in the future.
 
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