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So is it true that the Gemini produces a soft picture? Do you regret not going to 8K?

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adam brennan

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I hear different things about the quality of the picture on the Gemini. I hear it produces a soft image even when your subject is in focus. So what's the verdict? Do you Gemini owners wish you went 8K helium instead?
 
I'm not sure if I would consider Gemini "soft", though it definitely isn't harsh:

44367028224_4a8af815d5_o.png

Right click open in new tab for full 4K view, and here's without grain (I personally like the grain): https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1914/31214284068_23935bffaf_o.png

For a 4K delivery, the 8K of Helium and Monstro are going to have much better oversampling capability. But soft? I wouldn't say so.
 
adam brennan said:
I hear different things about the quality of the picture on the Gemini. I hear it produces a soft image even when your subject is in focus. So what's the verdict? Do you Gemini owners wish you went 8K helium instead?
Click to expand...

Umm no. We've tested Gemini footage and it looks plenty sharp. But also organic. It feels as sharp as 6K Dragon (or MORE SO), but it's so clean and good we felt it was easier to reframe on than Dragon as well.

So it's very sharp.

But it also has so much DR it has an organic quality that reminds me of Monstro.

A friend calls it "Mini Monstro" and I tend to agree.

I think it's a winner.
 
I've seen some 4k videos online shot on Gemini that looked a little soft on a 4k monitor. But it might have been a focus issue. Don't know. Also I haven't tested the Gemini yet to have a personal opinion about resolution.
 
Thanks everyone for the input. The picture posted looks pretty sharp. I think on the Red website there was a comparison of 4K & 8K. The 4K on the Gemini looked soft. But I might have been reading it wrong.
 
Yes 8K Helium probably feels a smidge sharper than Gemini, it's subtle.

Don't forget Gemini and Helium are THE SAME SIZE SENSOR (across), just Helium is 8K with tiny pixels, and Gemini is 5K with much larger pixels.

There are pro's and cons to both.

8K tiny pixels down sample so cleanly to 4K that noise gets minimized and blacks clean up.

Larger 5K pixels on the other hand by virtue of their size make them better suited for low light and wider DR.

Keep in mind Gemini has the largest pixels of any DSMC2 camera. They are the same size as Sony Venice. So it's no surprise folks are seeing incredible DR at 800 ISO, and such clean performance in lowlights. Big pixels can do wonders.

You know who lives by that? Arri. It should be no surprise that Alexa has massive pixels (but conversely less K's).

I think Gemini is one of the most interesring things RED has done in years. It may have the best DR by pixel of any RED ever. And it wouldn't shock me if RED is working on a GIGANTO 8K Gemini sensor that's close to 65mm Imax. It would make sense.
 
They probably have a test on CML. You may have to shoot a test chart and do some pixel peeping.

Major thing to keep in mind is to treat digital cameras like film stock when doing these comparisons, and that it depends on your taste.

I would personally love to see Gemini footage shot at night in low light mode where we can actually see the richness of the blacks (like on a Mysterium, Dragon, Helium, Alexa, Monstro, or VariCam) and not the black point shifted because there is not enough ambient light.
 
As others have stated, the Gemini has a very organic feel to it. The DR is probably the contributing factor to that. My personal Gemini is as sharp as Dragons that I have shot with, and I've had nothing but a positive experience with it!
 
Patrick Tresch said:
I still want the Monstro S35mm 6k sensor... We are aproaching Christmas, no?
Click to expand...

Or a FF Gemini with a 6k resolution for great 4k output. When you don't want to use hocus pocus de-bayer algorithms and some room for image stabilization (4096xsqrt2x2160xsqrt ~ 5793x3055 -> 6144x3240(41.68mm image circle) FF has 43.27 mm image circle would be nice. (or 6000x4000 when you want the same aspect ratios as FF stills)

Monstro 6k would still have an image circle of 34.73 mm which is way larger than S35 mm (24.89x13.89mm ~ 28.50mm image circle)
 
Whether or not footage is "soft' is going to be way more dependent on the lens than the image sensor.
 
If you are referring to the photo of the woman on the beach, that was shot with Atlas anamorphic lenses. With the edge focus fall-off, it could definitely appear softer; but in reality the file is sharp :)

https://www.red.com/dsmc2
 
Nick Morrison said:
Yes 8K Helium probably feels a smidge sharper than Gemini, it's subtle.

Don't forget Gemini and Helium are THE SAME SIZE SENSOR (across), just Helium is 8K with tiny pixels, and Gemini is 5K with much larger pixels.

There are pro's and cons to both.
Click to expand...

They are not the same size. Here are technical specs:

Helium

SENSOR TYPE HELIUM 35.4 Megapixel CMOS
EFFECTIVE PIXELS 8192 × 4320
SENSOR SIZE 29.90 mm × 15.77 mm (Diagonal: 33.80 mm)
DYNAMIC RANGE 16.5+ stops


Gemini

SENSOR TYPE GEMINI 15.4 Megapixel Dual Sensitivity CMOS
EFFECTIVE PIXELS 5120 × 3000
SENSOR SIZE 30.72 mm × 18 mm (Diagonal: 35.61 mm)
DYNAMIC RANGE 16.5+ stops

Source: https://www.red.com/dsmc2
 
The Gemini is not a "soft" image, but everything RED makes provides smooth capture of detail. Yeah, I'm going there.

However, when you take specific format sizes into account and possible captured resolution at that format size, I.e. the same image plane dimensions, the coversation is different.

To that point:
- RED Helium = 3.65 micron pixel pitch, is currently the highest resolving sensor
- RED Monstro = 5 micron pixel pitch, second highest resolving
- RED Gemini = 6 micron pixel pitch, and in third place.

So essentially on a per format basis you would be shooting at different resolutions. In the case of S35 imaging all three sensors are capable of creating a nice 4K finish in that format size.

And for the curious, film typically lands somewhere between Monstro and Gemini resolving-wise, though Monstro in side by side does outresolve it. You could make the argument that Gemini has a very film-like pixel perhaps.
 
Phil Holland said:
...
And for the curious, film typically lands somewhere between Monstro and Gemini resolving-wise, though Monstro in side by side does outresolve it. You could make the argument that Gemini has a very film-like pixel perhaps.
Click to expand...
Phil, I'm going to be mixing footage with monstro+hollywood_blackmagic_1/4 + arri_master_prime_ana_50mm with gemini+35mm_MP_ana. I was thinking of just leaving off the hollywood blackmagic filter when shooting with the gemini, also pondering going to a 1/8. As a side note, this is for quadhd, also the gemini is only for pickup and 2ndary shooting, especially with practicals/minimal lighting, while the monstro is being used as the main camera. I btw can't see how anyone could call gemini soft at quadhd, I btw won't be reframing the gemini, but the monstro footage that it will be cut to often get's reframed/cropped in post.
 
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