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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

So how does RedRay work?

Wayne Morellini said:
Graeme, is this codec your idea, or is somebody else's?


Thanks.
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I like to think the clever parts are mine, but you may need to wait for biography for the fuller version of the RED Ray story :)

Graeme
 
Keith Walters said:
two 2K Green images per “4K” frame. The Green images are diagonally offset by distance of about 1.4 pixels,

A great advantage of cameras and editing systems that store and work directly with Raw format, as opposed to more conventional ones based on fully decoded camera video, is that (in theory at any rate), the first time any image transcoding takes place is when the original camera files are rendered directly to the final output format by the render farm.
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Rather than have two green images its better to interpolate the two green images before compression and make a single 4K green image, the reason for that is that the wavlets disturb the two green images, so they do not quite combine as in True RAW, and interpolating the green as one plane makes a much sharper image anyway.

Your plan will not work in so far as it does not allow for time consuming area filters needed, although you can do "single pixel" color adjustments with LUT "on the fly", any complex area filters take too long to process "on the fly" by the player at 4K (well maybe it could be done but would require many complex image processing chips and a large memory size and power use and so cost too much for a low cost consumer player), they need to be done before encoding for release format (mostly in non real time). An example of that issue is that I think it has been said that RED ROCKET does not produce "finish" results the same as REDCINE-X, it seems maybe because extra filters were not implemented in the RED ROCKET hardware, mostly it seems RED RROCKET just de-compresses the images and re-sizes them, but does not ant-OLPF sharpen (un-sharp mask) or do heavy area filtering?

When I get my de-Bayer/image processing program out, it will do that kind of workflow in that the edit list can go back to the True RAW data to re-render for each output format, it saves quite a bit of render farm time that way because only the selected frames need to be rendered and the True RAW frames do take less diskspace than making RGB conversions of all frames. But in that case, the area filters would be part of the rendering before the result files were compressed for release formats.

I would think that RED RAY ingests RGB frames like any other compressed distribution format does like H.262 etc.
 
Greame,

I'm sorry that I couldn't meet up at NAB, got too busy color grading on a feature and also I got called to teach RED ONE at an University from this month. Anyways, what software would provide outputting to REDray format?
 
Kaku, we will provide the software necessary for a REDray encode.

Graeme
 
That is awesome news Graeme...are you working with Avid for smoother integration? it would be great to be able to add RedRay as a device, but as of now it would be some manner of export to SSD rather than a traditional playout like we now do on Symphony Nitris or other...
 
Did you read far too much Arthur C. Clarke, Asimov and E.E 'Doc' Smith growing up Graeme?
 
Jeremy Torrie said:
That is awesome news Graeme...are you working with Avid for smoother integration? it would be great to be able to add RedRay as a device, but as of now it would be some manner of export to SSD rather than a traditional playout like we now do on Symphony Nitris or other...
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You just need to hand our encoder a sequence of industry standard DPX or TIFF files for the image and WAV or AIF files for the audio channels, Jeremy...
 
I think something that most of these posts are missing is the idea that REDCODE, as shot by cameras, and the REDCODE that will be used as the distribution codec are different things. REDRAY is not about decoding a live Epic signal, it's about encoding RGB values (because that's what you get after you modify, VFX, color, finish, title, conform, etc your project) into a codec that can be used for distribution. They are two different situations: one is for capturing light and storing sensor data to be decoded/interpreted later, the other is to take a finished RGB signal and compress (and presumably protect/encrypt to assuage studio's fears) it for network distribution. Although they are probably based on the same ideas, they are not the same thing.
 
Correct there are two versions of the REDCODE codec - REDCODE RAW for camera (which is obviously RAW) and RED delivery codec (which accepts RGB)
 
Thanks for the clarifications Stuart.

Graeme
 
Stuart English said:
You just need to hand our encoder a sequence of industry standard DPX or TIFF files for the image and WAV or AIF files for the audio channels, Jeremy...
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two questions about the encoder, they were asked before on another thread..
will the encoder software be free?
how fast is it? and is there a hardware option to speed up the process?
 
Stuart English said:
The codec in RED RAY is optimized for 4K content distribution via the internet, not camera usage.

It is our intention to demonstrate that to be a "significant" size market.
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Yeah!!! so my hopes/predictions are true!
This product has taken so long to come to market...and still looks like it has some way to come.
I feel that all the work is being done, not in the player per-say, but with the content distribution network.
This will be a HUGE breadwinner for RED if the battle plan goes well.

I personally hope to have one of the first players, even if its to view 1080/2k material.
I know you have said its optimized for 4k delivery, but I hope you see the potential for 1080 too.
Much of the country will lag internet speeds and "on demand" has a catchy ring to it...<5 mb/s...'nuff said.
Add to that price/MB charged by some ISPs. As well, all the damn 1080 tvs that people have...and watch SD tv on.
 
Yes, but read again what I said about how 1080p benefits from being sourced from a full 4K resolution 10-bit image.
 
Stuart English said:
Yes, but read again what I said about how 1080p benefits from being sourced from a full 4K resolution 10-bit image.
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True enough. Down-sampling is fantastic; like the difference between artists and students oil/acrylic paint.
But to implement REDRAY quick to the mass market online (not theatrical), RGB catalogs will have to be used, no?
They are surely 1080/2K at best. There is little to the 4K catalog at this point.

Of course its obviously a fantastic way to distribute RED derived footage or 4K film scans.
I just see more potential in the market while "the 4Ks" catches up to us.
 
This thread seems to get forgotten, but I don't know how.

Stuart -any updates on RedRay Pro? Release date, in Red Store date?
 
Graeme Nattress said:
I like to think the clever parts are mine, but you may need to wait for biography for the fuller version of the RED Ray story :)

Graeme
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Thanks for that Graeme. Sorry for the late reply, been sick a lot again lately. You have given me enough infornation. If you are the only significant new or internal contributor then I guess it is based on existing codec or codec work. Which brings it down to a handfull of released codecs that it maybe based on, if not other codec/research work. My own ideas are not based on existing work, so it is unlikely to be too simular. They are pretty technical different and advanced. Look forward to seeing your spin on the field.

Thanks.
 
Ryan Patch said:
I think something that most of these posts are missing is the idea that REDCODE, as shot by cameras, and the REDCODE that will be used as the distribution codec are different things. REDRAY is not about decoding a live Epic signal, it's about encoding RGB values (because that's what you get after you modify, VFX, color, finish, title, conform, etc your project) into a codec that can be used for distribution. They are two different situations: one is for capturing light and storing sensor data to be decoded/interpreted later, the other is to take a finished RGB signal and compress (and presumably protect/encrypt to assuage studio's fears) it for network distribution. Although they are probably based on the same ideas, they are not the same thing.
Click to expand...

Never the less, there is a great need for something to replace h264 in consumer cameras and probably only one company that could effectively implement redray on consumer cameras in the near time, ambarella. Even for locsl video production and eng work, if rr is as good as people think it would be suitable. The reason is very simple, storage costs. Prices of sd cards stagnated forva few years. If Redray can do 4k at today's consumer fhd costs with better top end quality on eng and consumer work that is a big saving. It also presents great quality compared to hdtv, so serves well for hdtv aquistion. It would also offer much as a hdtv codec replacement, even fitting in the presnt channel structure. I notice the delay since these issyes were raised years ago, so hopefully it is some indication that some of this might be being considered.
 
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